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Re: Where will WAPA get it's Oil from?

Lucy
March 12, 2012 03:42PM

Registered: 10 years ago
Posts: 297

Chief, this might have what you need.

[wetlands.simplyaquatics.com]

Re: Where will WAPA get it's Oil from?

trainwreck82
March 12, 2012 06:38PM

Registered: 11 years ago
Posts: 286

Folks I work in IT and we have a saying here: There is a special level of hell for assholes that speak in acronyms and technical terms to people that are obviously out of their field and expect them to ask for a definition each and every time.

Re: Where will WAPA get it's Oil from?

dougtamjj
March 12, 2012 07:18PM

Registered: 11 years ago
Posts: 2,578

trainwreck82 thumbs up

Re: Where will WAPA get it's Oil from?

blu4u
March 12, 2012 10:34PM

Registered: 6 years ago
Posts: 842

Quote
trainwreck82
Folks I work in IT and we have a saying here: There is a special level of hell for assholes that speak in acronyms and technical terms to people that are obviously out of their field and expect them to ask for a definition each and every time.

Train, help me out? What does "it"mean?....JK....!

Re: Where will WAPA get it's Oil from?

DaChief
March 12, 2012 10:48PM

Registered: 6 years ago
Posts: 129

A surprising revelation; CNG (Compressed Natural Gas) would be by far the best fuel (for STX anyway)- not as cheap as LNG (Liquified Natural Gas) but CNG wouldn't require the extensive infrastructure changes. I estimated a better than 50% savings on fuel costs just from that switch.

Yes Tart- I believe that his will be the eventual goal, to have a successor to Hovensa, CNG could be shipped in from abroad (Trinidad) and stored under pressure at the refinery. A pipeline could then go to WAPA. The GE Frame 5 GT Sets (General Electric Grame 5 LNA Series Gas Turbine Generator Sets) would love CNG- and reduce the NOx and SOx Emissions (Nitrogen Oxides and Sulfur Oxide).


Lucy- I am now running the calculations for Medium Speed Diesel Engines, using #2 Oil, LPG, LNG, CNG and will try dual fuel...
Guaranteed efficiency for those sets are above 47% with combined cycle HRSG (or waste heat boilers as we call them out here).. I'll PM you the calcs when done.

I have to obtain the capital costs involved with retrofitting the Frame 5 GT Sets, but- the island of Kauai has already replaced their aging GT Sets (one just like the one's here) with brand new LM2500 Sets with a new HRSG for about 32 million a copy new- we would need 2 plus keeping one other Frame 5 and completely doing away with the steam plant. Our current Heat Rate is about 14220 btu/kwh- they relaized a drop to about 8400 btu/kwh...That would probaby come close to abolishing the LEAC almost in it's entirety....

Re: Where will WAPA get it's Oil from?

blu4u
March 12, 2012 11:03PM

Registered: 6 years ago
Posts: 842

Ok chief, I follow you. less btu per kw. Got it. What is the price for CNG v. fuel oil? How stable is the supply from Trinidad? Is there a possibility of a securing a domestic source? Where would CNG be stored? Can the exisiting tanks contain gas under pressure? Or is a sub-aquatic facility required? And by the way, Chief, don't confuse blu with tart.. Thanks.

Re: Where will WAPA get it's Oil from?

DaChief
March 12, 2012 11:22PM

Registered: 6 years ago
Posts: 129

Have to take a break from all the figures, hell I have a splitting headache-

ok Blu- based on present consumptions at 24 % thermal to net electric efficiency, i estimate that WAPA pays $479,048 daily for #2 Oil and #6 Oil combined. For the same Heat Rate, LPG would be $393,750, LPG would be $144,772 and CNG would be $159,480 that's all based on a maximum base load of 50 MW. In reality, the Base Load is probaby 32 MW with peaks to about 50 MW.

The biggest problem would the infrastructure change to LNG. Large cryrogenic storage would have to be constructed, along with a LNG Terminal- no small feat or cost. The current LPG Tanks are HP (High Pressure) Pressure Vessels- I think could easily be converted, as the same with the generator sets- you could even burn in the existing boilers with modifications to the burners. Be cleaner, cheaper and give the rate payer a significant reduction.

The capital costs will be the next thing to calculate. I can't help but wonder how much of the 155 million Bond issuance that WAPA tendered is remaining; they could have been well underway to solving this problem. Already I calculated the that the Diesel Engine Technology is pretty close to what's been stated- 40% reduction in fuel cost, just by switching to Diesels......

Re: Where will WAPA get it's Oil from?

OldTart
March 13, 2012 06:47AM

Registered: 6 years ago
Posts: 6,524

Quote
DaChief
Yes Tart- I believe that his will be the eventual goal, to have a successor to Hovensa, CNG could be shipped in from abroad (Trinidad) and stored under pressure at the refinery. A pipeline could then go to WAPA. The GE Frame 5 GT Sets (General Electric Grame 5 LNA Series Gas Turbine Generator Sets) would love CNG- and reduce the NOx and SOx Emissions (Nitrogen Oxides and Sulfur Oxide).

I didn't ask anything like this, so I guess third time wasn't lucky and my simple non-technical question isn't going to be answered. Oh well, I'm sure I can find the answer somewhere! big grin

Re: Where will WAPA get it's Oil from?

divinggirl
March 13, 2012 07:42AM

Registered: 10 years ago
Posts: 887

Quote
OldTart
, so I guess third time wasn't lucky and my simple non-technical question isn't going to be answered. Oh well, I'm sure I can find the answer somewhere! big grin

Your question was answered on the previous page. It was indicated that "VI code states that they MUST be public, though not advertised." The poster noted that he is scouring the net for RFP's and has not found them. My suggestion would be to contact WAPA and request the information.

Re: Where will WAPA get it's Oil from?

OldTart
March 13, 2012 07:54AM

Registered: 6 years ago
Posts: 6,524

Quote
divinggirl
Quote
OldTart
, so I guess third time wasn't lucky and my simple non-technical question isn't going to be answered. Oh well, I'm sure I can find the answer somewhere! big grin

Your question was answered on the previous page. It was indicated that "VI code states that they MUST be public, though not advertised." The poster noted that he is scouring the net for RFP's and has not found them. My suggestion would be to contact WAPA and request the information.

Ah, thank you. I believe my eyes were crossing and blurring trying to sift through all the technical information. Oh, I know where else to look and who to call, just thought the quicker answer could be found through the knowledge of Da Chief.

Re: Where will WAPA get it's Oil from?

IslandHops
March 13, 2012 08:32AM

Registered: 9 years ago
Posts: 929

I'm all for switching to CNG, and if possible lets converting the generators presently on the Hovensa property. No need to build a cross island pipeline.

BUT...Am I the only one that thinks the VI government will do a 'FANTASTIC' last minute deal with Hovensa/Hess (4th extension agreement?) that allows them to use the facility as a storage terminal in return for them continuing to supply fuel oil and gas using their existing infrastructure? @#$%& - even Ray Charles can see this coming. cool

Re: Where will WAPA get it's Oil from?

Lucy
March 13, 2012 08:51AM

Registered: 10 years ago
Posts: 297

Island, that solves the fuel supply issue for the time being, but not the cost issue. Whether it be Hess / Hovensa supplying or another company, the discount goes away. In addition, it does not address the aging WAPA fleet with low efficiencies. WAPA is the only island utility that is not running diesels; which is the best option for small remote operations. Medium speed units in simple-cycle arrangement are +45% eff. And they do a better job of load following.

Re: Where will WAPA get it's Oil from?

IslandHops
March 13, 2012 09:05AM

Registered: 9 years ago
Posts: 929

I'm in total agreement that something needs to be done to change the way in which we generate and use energy. We do not have a financially viable model in operation today, and our future in this regard looks bleak. It's hard to encourage new investment in businesses when your energy costs exceed all norms.

However, if we remember where we are, the government will take great credit in "solving the pending crisis" by restoring the status quo, without having to put any real thought or effort toward better solutions. Even if it costs us more, the legislature will likely find a way to "creatively fund" the increase in LEAC, at least through November, to get past the next election cycle.

Our current legislature is sorely lacking in forward thinking, creative problem solving, and leadership.

Re: Where will WAPA get it's Oil from?

blu4u
March 13, 2012 01:13PM

Registered: 6 years ago
Posts: 842

Quote
IslandHops
It's hard to encourage new investment in businesses when your energy costs exceed all norms.

Or when basic overhead costs (electricity / gasoline) are impossible to forecast. Am I crazy to project gas at $10 per gallon before year-end? Demand inching up. Supply dropping. Fuel transportation trickier. Speculation increasing.

Re: Where will WAPA get it's Oil from?

DaChief
March 18, 2012 12:26PM

Registered: 6 years ago
Posts: 129

So, WAPA has posted IFB/RFP's for #6 Oil and #2 Oil. The requirements, delivery strategies and the amounts pretty well match word for word what I have stated on this board.....Along with the delivery Date and FOB Locations...They will already be paying too much, as they are inside the 90 day charter window and will have tpo go on the spot market for the first few months.

Emergency my butt...Now we need to file a FOIA request with WAPA once the bids are let to see who in our backyard is adding wood to the fire...

Re: Where will WAPA get it's Oil from?

DaChief
March 18, 2012 01:21PM

Registered: 6 years ago
Posts: 129

A few observations:

On page 12 of the contract for #2 Oil, the Pricing Formula "50% ULSD fuel from the Pratts Oilgram for US Gulf Waterborne and 50% plus
50% of the ULS diesel fuel from the average of the Argus Products US Gulf Waterborne Price.

ULSD is Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel Fuel with a maximum sulfur content of 15 ppm or .0015% sulfur.
The #2 Oil specification on page 22 requires .15% and .20% for STT and STX respectively thats 1500 ppm and 2000 ppm sulfur content.
That means that we are paying approximately $7 a barrel above what the oil is worth right from the outset,

Now, if Delivery is included in this price, that's fine- if it isn't, then we're being overcharged.

WAPA is going to pay on Net 30- Seeing it will be believing it....

Looks like whoever has advised WAPA on their liabilities with respect to the Oil Pollution Act of 1990 and International Conventions regarding WAPA's Civil Liability as Charterer and Owner by Clear Title at FOB "barge permanent flange" needs to read more on the subject.

In layman's terms- this means that once WAPA becomes the titled Owner of the Oil at the Loading Point FOB the barge permanent flange- it is also accepting liability in the case of a major oil pollution event- Charterers are also not exempt from from liability- "if clear and concise evidence is presented that the Charterer had foreknowledge of deficiencies existing with the operator or owner of the vessel".

Hope that they are using US Flag vessels- their insurance is cheaper.If they government subsidizes one dime of this fuel, then it MUST be shipped US Flag...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2012 01:33PM by DaChief.

Re: Where will WAPA get it's Oil from?

OldTart
March 19, 2012 07:41AM

Registered: 6 years ago
Posts: 6,524

In case anyone is interested, there is a link at the end of this article to see the full details:

[stthomassource.com]

Re: Where will WAPA get it's Oil from?

wenchtoo
March 19, 2012 11:03AM

Registered: 6 years ago
Posts: 102

Quote
OldTart
In case anyone is interested, there is a link at the end of this article to see the full details:

[stthomassource.com]

I hope that they answer the phones!! smiling

Re: Where will WAPA get it's Oil from?

DaChief
March 27, 2012 12:23AM

Registered: 6 years ago
Posts: 129

"DeJongh Secures WAPA Fuel Prices to Year's End "

Looks like I'm right again. Again, we're paying Ultra Low Sulfur Prices for Low Sulfur Fuel. Oh, well; better to have a happy face and smile when you stay in a holiday inn express......

Re: Where will WAPA get it's Oil from?

IslandHops
March 27, 2012 10:42AM

Registered: 9 years ago
Posts: 929

The deal detailed in today's Avis makes me look positively clairvoyant. cool

(see post from March 13, 2012 08:32AM above)

Re: Where will WAPA get it's Oil from?

DaChief
March 27, 2012 03:33PM

Registered: 6 years ago
Posts: 129

Quote
DaChief
No, I'll bet that Hess continues to supply the .3% S #2 Oil and the .5% S #6 Oil only without the discounted rate- transshipped from either Houston or NY Harbor. They require about 3549 bbls a day at STX and about 5000 bbls a day at STT. I am wondering why these RFP's have NEVER been published to my knowledge.

I discussed the coming rate increase with one of the pincipals yesterday- my best estimate is .55 a kwh by third quarter, That's if it's delivert based on 147 a barrel. Brent was down to $125 yesterday...


As above, I posted this on March 10th. Yes Hops- you are clairvoyant- All one has to do is light a trash can off, wait for the smoke, charge in, in charge with the fire extinguisher and voila- instant recognition...

The fact STILL remains that after 12/31, we will STILL need a supplier- postponement of the inevitable.

I have been getting a lot background noise regarding the sale of certain components in the refinery. One crane company in fact was canvassing the island gfor radios. Who knows? But, I am getting the old intuitive feeling that something is afoot- and maybe something or someone will be operating something after 01/19/2013...Hopefully so.

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