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Re: racism on the islands

monogram
December 09, 2015 09:43PM

Registered: 3 years ago
Posts: 446

Quote
islandjoan
Monogram, Festus Pemberton is a black boat owner who used to participate in the parade.

1 out of 85,000 blacks in the VI--yikes. A true inspiration--STX's Jackie Robinson!

Re: racism on the islands

janeinstx
December 09, 2015 10:05PM

Registered: 6 years ago
Posts: 651

thumbs up
I suspect you will wait a long time for an answer.

Re: racism on the islands

monogram
December 09, 2015 10:05PM

Registered: 3 years ago
Posts: 446

Quote
rotorhead
Quote
monogram
And trust me--the Palestinians who came here and prospered would not have been so prosperous had they instead moved to Israel. Most would admit that. I'd reckon that they would not have even fared as well had they moved to certain communities in the U.S. The VI, as we do with most whites, welcomed them with open arms and allowed them to make millions of dollars through our financial support. Not an ounce of structural racism.

You missed the point. If the Palestinians were able to come here and prosper with nothing, why can't Crucians prosper here? Is there someone here who is stopping them from being successful? Is there racial discrimination here against the local people? Why aren't there more prosperous Crucians joining the Yacht Club and buying boats? Are there white people here preventing locals from prospering as much as the Palestinians have prospered?

One of the Palestinians told me about his father going door to door with a suitcase selling stuff in order to save up enough money to start a business. Then the whole family pooling their money to start the business. Then working hard and plowing profits back into the business.

What keeps local people from doing the same? Who is suppressing them besides themselves? Why don't locals own the gas stations and grocery stores?

We agree that locals are mostly oppressed by the political elite (comprised of fellow locals). There is no white institutional racism in the VI per se, except perhaps at the super macro level. I'm not sure why you delved into that discussion, though, as our talks have been about your contention that the VI is racist against whites. My goal was to dispute that particular contention, not to explain the failings of the VI black community.

Still, your analysis misses the mark. VI youth receive terrible instruction in the public schools. The brightest youth (who would ideally serve as role models) are sent away to the States, leaving the dregs to terrorize the community. The political class, most of whom are not intellectually gifted, do little to change the setup. Their economic policies (encouraging government employment as opposed to private sector development) keep the people poor and the government coffers empty. The welfare state has also infected the minds of much of the VI populace. I suspect we'd agree on much of this.

Here's a point that you may not have considered: the Bert Bryan crew that supposedly hates whites are equally hateful to "down-islanders," or West Indians from other jurisdictions. The language placed in Bert's proposed Constitution would have disenfranchised a vast majority of the population, including whites and the descendants of "down islanders." Very few people satisfy the conditions required to join the truly "elite" "ancestral native" class. Your analysis is too simplistic, and mistakes the decades-old distrust of outsiders for racism.

Re: racism on the islands

monogram
December 09, 2015 10:54PM

Registered: 3 years ago
Posts: 446

Quote
janeinstx
thumbs up
I suspect you will wait a long time for an answer.

thumbs upthumbs upcool

Re: racism on the islands
avatar

rotorhead
December 09, 2015 11:27PM

Registered: 12 years ago
Posts: 2,449

Quote
monogram

We agree that locals are mostly oppressed by the political elite (comprised of fellow locals). There is no white institutional racism in the VI per se, except perhaps at the super macro level. I'm not sure why you delved into that discussion, though, as our talks have been about your contention that the VI is racist against whites. My goal was to dispute that particular contention, not to explain the failings of the VI black community.

Still, your analysis misses the mark. VI youth receive terrible instruction in the public schools. The brightest youth (who would ideally serve as role models) are sent away to the States, leaving the dregs to terrorize the community. The political class, most of whom are not intellectually gifted, do little to change the setup. Their economic policies (encouraging government employment as opposed to private sector development) keep the people poor and the government coffers empty. The welfare state has also infected the minds of much of the VI populace. I suspect we'd agree on much of this.

Here's a point that you may not have considered: the Bert Bryan crew that supposedly hates whites are equally hateful to "down-islanders," or West Indians from other jurisdictions. The language placed in Bert's proposed Constitution would have disenfranchised a vast majority of the population, including whites and the descendants of "down islanders." Very few people satisfy the conditions required to join the truly "elite" "ancestral native" class. Your analysis is too simplistic, and mistakes the decades-old distrust of outsiders for racism.

You raise a couple of interesting questions. So the local "elite" oppress the local people but not the Palestinians?

What keeps the local people from succeeding to the extent that the Palestinians did? They did not arrive here with buckets of cash and advanced degrees. You point to the wealth controlled by transplanted whites and the lack "things" like boats owned by locals and you appear to blame this on the white business owners. You make it sound like it is the fault of the white business owners because they don't provide jobs for the local blacks. Why don't the local black business owners provide jobs for the local blacks? Why aren't there more local black business owners? To what do you attribute the success of the white business owners who you say own everything? You say that the brightest youth are "sent away". Are they banished forever? I have been voting here since 1998 and I would love to see a candidate run for office who is "bright". I am tired of the "Chuckies" and the "Juan Figueroa-Servilles". And of course the "Bryans". I didn't vote for Mapp, I voted for Soraya. Why don't these "bright" locals care enough to come home and start businesses or run for office? Do they not care about the VI?

You keep insisting on confusing racism with institutional racism. The title of this thread is "racism on the islands" not "institutional racism on the islands". You refuse to accept the dictionary definition of racism and admit that there is in fact "individual racism" on the islands. Some of us have experienced the dictionary definition of racism from individuals who live here (not all, but more than a few). The dictionary definition, which is what I think the title was referring to, does happen here.

I have black friends here, I have lived here a long time. My closest friend is black, I hang out with him more than anyone else except for my wife. One thing that I learned from him is not to expect less from him or treat him differently because he is black. I don't. I do not pull punches or avoid saying things because he is black and I certainly hope he doesn't.

With that in mind, I ask you, who do you expect to fix the wealth disparity between transplanted whites and local blacks? Who do you blame for the disparity?

I lived most of my life on the west coast working for computer companies. Before I retired from Microsoft I ran a software development group. I never had a single black coder apply for a job. However, half of my group were East Indians many as dark skinned as any local here. In order to get a high paying job you must have skills. Whose responsibility is it to acquire those skills? Is society responsible? At what point is the individual responsible?

Re: racism on the islands
avatar

rotorhead
December 10, 2015 03:01AM

Registered: 12 years ago
Posts: 2,449

Re: racism on the islands

OldTart
December 10, 2015 05:59AM

Registered: 6 years ago
Posts: 6,524

Quote
monogram
... VI youth receive terrible instruction in the public schools. The brightest youth (who would ideally serve as role models) are sent away to the States, leaving the dregs to terrorize the community. The political class, most of whom are not intellectually gifted, do little to change the setup. Their economic policies (encouraging government employment as opposed to private sector development) keep the people poor and the government coffers empty. The welfare state has also infected the minds of much of the VI populace. I suspect we'd agree on much of this.

Sitting behind a computer screen and tossing out glittering generalities about a faulty system which not only is not peculiar to the USVI in its shortcomings but which most of us are well aware exist (and have been for a few decades) is productive how? You've said yourself that your peers don't vote but assure us that your brilliant generation is going to rise supreme and right the societal ills which beset us. When and how?

"Talk is cheap" is a hackneyed phrase but appropriate.

Re: racism on the islands

speee1dy
December 10, 2015 07:49AM

Registered: 10 years ago
Posts: 8,543

so it sounds like you are confusing racism with the disparity in wealth?

i cant say it any better than rotor.

but maybe you could list all the black owned businesses on the islands and lets see who owns most of those. or maybe list, in addition to the black owned businesses, the asian owned, the arab owned etc... lets see who owns more of what.

i work with people who tell me their friends from high school choose to NOT do anything with their lives and choose to have baby after baby and collect welfare-whose fault?

what is your definition of "East End" you seem to have a real fixation on the east end and who lives there. my definition is pretty much anything beyond pearl b larson-you are always saying blacks dont live there. i see plenty living out that way. unless your definition is cotton valley? but wait-i know a black who just purchased property there not too long ago and is going to build a house. i might know 4 people ( other than those i work with who live there ) out east so i cant comment on the rest.
why is the east end the be all and end all? not everyone wants to live that close to the water and have things corroded by salt water all the time. some people love the rain forest, others love frederiksted.


good grief-why is racism the only thing YOU think about . what does that say about you

Re: racism on the islands

islandjoan
December 10, 2015 09:02AM

Registered: 11 years ago
Posts: 1,557

1 out of 85,000 blacks in the VI--yikes. A true inspiration--STX's Jackie Robinson!

I'm sure there are more than just him. There must be several black boat owners. If I had the time I would do the research.

Anyway, maybe there aren't so many black boat owners, because a lot of local blacks don't know how to swim?
This has been told to me, by many locals.
Or, maybe they just don't like boats?

I'm sure many of the high ranking commissioners and government goons, on their high salaries and high kickbacks and such, can afford to buy a boat.

Re: racism on the islands

stxsailor
December 10, 2015 10:30AM

Registered: 3 years ago
Posts: 493

Maybe the locals are smart enough not to own boats. Like my friend says "don't own a boat, make friends with boat owners,"

Re: racism on the islands

OldTart
December 10, 2015 10:46AM

Registered: 6 years ago
Posts: 6,524

The Frenchies own boats and businesses. Oh, but wait, they've been here for generations but (gasp) they're (mostly) white so don't fit monogram's criteria for the underprivileged and uneducated.

Re: racism on the islands

monogram
December 10, 2015 12:17PM

Registered: 3 years ago
Posts: 446

Quote
OldTart
The Frenchies own boats and businesses. Oh, but wait, they've been here for generations but (gasp) they're (mostly) white so don't fit monogram's criteria for the underprivileged and uneducated.

The political and economic success of the Frenchies provide perhaps the strongest evidence against the notion that the VI is racist against whites. Makes my argument for me!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2015 12:28PM by monogram.

Re: racism on the islands

OldTart
December 10, 2015 12:34PM

Registered: 6 years ago
Posts: 6,524

It proves nothing where your very misguided assumptions are concerned. Ridiculous.

Re: racism on the islands

monogram
December 10, 2015 01:37PM

Registered: 3 years ago
Posts: 446

The animus toward American transplants is widespread in the region (and not a racial thing, like the uncultured would suggest):

"Why Costa Rica HATES Gringos- EXPLAINED"

[www.youtube.com]

I hoped for a more nuanced discussion.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2015 01:42PM by monogram.

Re: racism on the islands

speee1dy
December 10, 2015 02:15PM

Registered: 10 years ago
Posts: 8,543

so you ignore the majority of questions posed to you to say costa ricans hate gringos?

Re: racism on the islands
avatar

rotorhead
December 10, 2015 02:19PM

Registered: 12 years ago
Posts: 2,449

Quote
monogram
The animus toward American transplants is widespread in the region (and not a racial thing, like the uncultured would suggest):

"Why Costa Rica HATES Gringos- EXPLAINED"

[www.youtube.com]

I hoped for a more nuanced discussion.

PC translator.....

uncultured = anyone who disagrees with monogram

I hoped for a more nuanced discussion = I expected everyone to accept my definition of racism (even though it differs from the dictionary definition) and agree with me.

Re: racism on the islands

OldTart
December 10, 2015 02:25PM

Registered: 6 years ago
Posts: 6,524

Quote
speee1dy
so you ignore the majority of questions posed to you to say costa ricans hate gringos?

Modus operandi. I sincerely hope that monogram is just a simple troll. To accept that this is a real thinker is most dispiriting.

Re: racism on the islands
avatar

rotorhead
December 10, 2015 02:48PM

Registered: 12 years ago
Posts: 2,449

BTW. I consider the video above of Senator Figueroa-Serville to be a racist rant. This was in the senate and was broadcast on public access television. He was followed soon after by similar remarks from Senator Ronnie Russell. (video also on youtube). I do not believe that Roger W Morgan was affiliated with the KKK nor do I believe that he called anyone dogs and monkeys on the radio. But according to monogram this is not racist, it is simple anti-gringo and does not meet the standard for racism. I guess that I am just uncultured.

The Wall Street Journal take on things. We get great press.
[www.wsj.com]

Re: racism on the islands

speee1dy
December 10, 2015 02:50PM

Registered: 10 years ago
Posts: 8,543

rotor sucks to be so uncultured. smh. correct OT

also, if monogram can answer any questions posed ( doubt it ) these "white" owned businesses he seems to hate, i just wonder how many blacks work at these places? Hmmm.

Re: racism on the islands

islandjoan
December 10, 2015 04:32PM

Registered: 11 years ago
Posts: 1,557

Hey Monogram!

I did some research and found out who owns Tutu Park Mall!!

Check it out: Harthman Leasing

Now I need to find out if they are black or white! (more research needed on that) However they have resided in the USVI since the early 1700s, so I don't know if that matters to you or not.

BTW I found out who owns it by using MapGeo: MapGeo

Re: racism on the islands

stxsailor
December 11, 2015 08:06AM

Registered: 3 years ago
Posts: 493

Too much worry about black, white, brown what ever we are all Virgin Islanders either by birth or choice.

Re: racism on the islands

speee1dy
December 11, 2015 08:40AM

Registered: 10 years ago
Posts: 8,543

tell that to monogram

Re: racism on the islands

JahRustyFerrari
December 11, 2015 09:08AM

Registered: 7 years ago
Posts: 249

rotorhead said:
<quote>
I lived most of my life on the west coast working for computer companies. Before I retired from Microsoft I ran a software development group. I never had a single black coder apply for a job.
</quote>

This is true, we are under-represented as a group in the hardcore coding community. I can't tell you how many surprised looks I get when I show up for face-to-face interviews LOL!

That being said, this Black coder is successfully representing the VI on the mainland, along with several others from St. Croix. One of the most brilliant programmers I've ever known is a young man from St. Croix who has made quite a name for himself in the embedded software industry, which, as you know, predominantly uses C++...he graduated from UVI. I develop software for a group of researchers who just marketed the world's first dengue vaccine. Three of those researchers are from the VI...two from St. Croix, one from St. Thomas, all PhD's.

You won't see us coming back home any time soon...I have applied numerous times to job postings on the vidol.gov website, for positions for which I am obviously qualified. I have never received a response. Just because you are qualified to work for international biotech firms developing vaccines, or working as a developer for Google apps (like one young lady from St. Croix), or working as a software engineer for IBM (another young lady from St. Croix) does not mean you qualify to work for any IT firm in the VI (chuckle..). They will never respond to your application.

I would love to see the youth of St. Croix embrace software development on the same level as the East Indians. While working on an Android app for the East Indian market recently (a college search app) I discovered that there are over 5,000 tech schools in India...very different culture, that. One of my best buddies here is a developer from Mumbai. He's brilliant.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2015 09:19AM by JahRustyFerrari.

Re: racism on the islands

monogram
December 11, 2015 11:03AM

Registered: 3 years ago
Posts: 446

Quote
JahRustyFerrari

Three of those researchers are from the VI...two from St. Croix, one from St. Thomas, all PhD's.

You won't see us coming back home any time soon...I have applied numerous times to job postings on the vidol.gov website, for positions for which I am obviously qualified. I have never received a response. Just because you are qualified to work for international biotech firms developing vaccines, or working as a developer for Google apps (like one young lady from St. Croix), or working as a software engineer for IBM (another young lady from St. Croix) does not mean you qualify to work for any IT firm in the VI (chuckle..). They will never respond to your application.

One interviewer said that my top-five (U.S. News) alma mater was "decent," but that I should have went to UVI. LOL. I was passed over for a political hack. There is no "local benefit," other than to those within the political class (right last names). This is why I take issue with the suggestion that the VI is racist against whites and locals retain some sort of privilege.

The local population outside the political class (the vast majority of the local population) is in fact the most oppressed group in the territory, as they typically do not have the financial resources to insulate themselves from government malfeasance (the ability to purchase generators, etc). The political class is screwing everybody except their small group, and making it about race misses the mark.

The political class will never allow the young and supremely educated back into the territory, because they know it means that their corrupt system will be dismantled.

Re: racism on the islands

watruw8ing4
December 11, 2015 11:06AM

Registered: 11 years ago
Posts: 851

Quote
JahRustyFerrari
rotorhead said:
<quote>
I lived most of my life on the west coast working for computer companies. Before I retired from Microsoft I ran a software development group. I never had a single black coder apply for a job.
</quote>

This is true, we are under-represented as a group in the hardcore coding community. I can't tell you how many surprised looks I get when I show up for face-to-face interviews LOL!

That being said, this Black coder is successfully representing the VI on the mainland, along with several others from St. Croix. One of the most brilliant programmers I've ever known is a young man from St. Croix who has made quite a name for himself in the embedded software industry, which, as you know, predominantly uses C++...he graduated from UVI. I develop software for a group of researchers who just marketed the world's first dengue vaccine. Three of those researchers are from the VI...two from St. Croix, one from St. Thomas, all PhD's.

You won't see us coming back home any time soon...I have applied numerous times to job postings on the vidol.gov website, for positions for which I am obviously qualified. I have never received a response. Just because you are qualified to work for international biotech firms developing vaccines, or working as a developer for Google apps (like one young lady from St. Croix), or working as a software engineer for IBM (another young lady from St. Croix) does not mean you qualify to work for any IT firm in the VI (chuckle..). They will never respond to your application.

I would love to see the youth of St. Croix embrace software development on the same level as the East Indians. While working on an Android app for the East Indian market recently (a college search app) I discovered that there are over 5,000 tech schools in India...very different culture, that. One of my best buddies here is a developer from Mumbai. He's brilliant.

My tale of two mainland cities and black and international programmers. No point, just a perspective:

Back in the old, old days, (when everything was mainframe), my company trained their own programmers because there simply were not enough to hire out of college. I was assigned to a mentor, who at the time, was the only black programmer in the company. This was in DC, where the majority of the company employees were black. This guy had previously been responsible for designing the entire mainframe interface from scratch. He was absolutely brilliant, and I credit him for giving me the jump start that kept me well-employed for over two decades.

He spent an extra hour or so after quitting time, "playing around" (coming up with new algorithms), as well as working with me when I could stay, and teaching other programmer wannabees. These were mostly blacks in the company who had fallen a bit short of the in-house training requirements. Some of them were later hired on his recommendation, and did well. By the time I left that company, our large IT department had morphed into a United Nations makeup, including way more blacks, a Korean, a German, a Pakistani working alongside of a former Israeli soldier, and 2 Indians. No matter what color or nationality you were, if you had had a knack for logic, and could hack the job, you were respected.

Years later, I moved to a different city, which also had a high black population. IT department of 50 had 2 blacks. I was sitting in a planning meeting and one of my coworkers, complaining about one of the two (who was really bad at the job), made the statement "There's no such thing as a good black programmer". I was stunned, but it helped me figure out why there were only 2. The other black programmer was new, and a sharp cookie we had somehow managed to recruit from IBM. She picked up the vibe quickly and left for greener/blacker pastures. She's the one who let me know about the job opening that I grabbed and stayed with for 11 years, which, even in the same city, was more like my earlier job.

BTW, I spent my early snow-birding years here working remotely, and when I left to spend more time here, was offered the chance to continue. I would love to see some of the VI talent being able to come back here and do the same. Or maybe come here and start their own businesses. The brain drain is not helping.

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