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Re: Respecting the beliefs of others
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rotorhead
October 07, 2016 06:02PM

Registered: 12 years ago
Posts: 2,440

Quote
Gumbo
Actually a meaningful discussion about being an atheist, gay or whatever someone wants to discuss is fine. However after ones questions have been answered it's time to move on to other subjects that we share common ground. Such as swimming, history, aircraft, cars, fishing ect. Some people wake up in the morning driving the point of their position and do it constantly. If they were confident in there beliefs it would not be necessary.
I think birth control in a pre-conception form is fine. In a unplanned event of concern the morning after pill is a viable option. However I also believe that one's body is to be shared with another in a meaningful way. If there isn't a deep loving connection your knees should stay together. I don't believe in "friends with benefits"
I do believe in saying grace before a meal. I think it is important to give thanks for our substance. Silently is also a good option if someone present doesn't share my view. I share company with many of different belief. When I share dinner with my neighbors we hold hands and pray before eating. We are like in belief.
As far as my relationship with God. I didn't
decide one day that I was a Christian. I prayed for forgiveness and asked the Lord to take control of my heart. I meant it and he has. That was 15 years ago. I am almost 50 now and I am thankful I did. Faith comes before reassurance. It is a building process.

I can only speak for myself, I talk about atheism and freethought a lot because it is FINALLY OK to talk about them. You don't seem to understand that for MANY centuries the church stifled blasphemous speech. It was a crime that could get you jailed or worse. The last person jailed for blasphemy in the US was in 1928. The victim of this religious persecution was a shop owner who dared to post a sign in his shop window. "Evolution Is True. The Bible's a Lie. God's a Ghost." and for this he was jailed and fined.

Religion is all about mind control, by controlling what people are allowed to talk about you control society. Your feelings about sex are YOUR feelings. I think that you should be allowed to have a sex life that you are comfortable with, as should others. If others want straight sex or gay sex or friends with benefits, that is their business and not yours. From the Libertarian platform.
"As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others.
We believe that respect for individual rights is the essential precondition for a free and prosperous world, that force and fraud must be banished from human relationships, and that only through freedom can peace and prosperity be realized.
Consequently, we defend each person’s right to engage in any activity that is peaceful and honest, and welcome the diversity that freedom brings. The world we seek to build is one where individuals are free to follow their own dreams in their own ways, without interference from government or any authoritarian power."


I am not trying to outlaw religion. I am however interested in leveling the playing field. I do not think that the government should take sides.

We should get god out of our government! Most religious intrusions into our government were added in the mid-1950's as part of McCarthyism. To help fight those godless communists. We should get rid of "In god we trust" because clearly many of us do not. And go back to "E Pluribus Unum". A much better unifying motto. Get rid of "Under God" in our pledge of allegiance so that all of us could say the pledge without barfing. Get rid of prayer in government meetings. Why should those of us who are not religious have to sit through one of YOUR prayers as the price of admission in order to participate in OUR government. Just say your prayers before you come to the meeting. Why should our freedoms be limited because we don't agree with your supernatural beliefs. All limitations on holding government office which require a belief in a supernatural sky wizard should be removed.

We should be able to have free discussion about world views. I do not question my world view. I do not suspect for a moment that there is a god and that I have made the wrong choice. I was raised Southern Baptist. The Bible was required reading and church attendance was mandatory. The thing that I disapprove is the childhood indoctrination. I asked many, many questions as a child attending church. I never got any satisfactory answers. It has always been apparent to me (since age 13) that religion is nothing more than mythology which has not been abandoned YET. Religious people are so insecure in their beliefs that for millennia they have resorted to censorship and violence to prevent any dissension. Otherwise why would there have been many inquisitions and blasphemy laws? Religion fears freethought.

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others

Gumbo
October 07, 2016 10:20PM

Registered: 3 years ago
Posts: 457

Most likley you probably have been free to speak of Atheism your entire life if you chose too. As I said before, religion of any sort should not be forced on anyone. my beliefs haven't been forced on anyone by me.
We were discussing beliefs and I was answering questions you asked.
I do not think that anyone's sex life is my business, whatever it may be.
I'm at peace with the fact that I can control only my own behavior. I live according to my own beliefs.
The topic of this thread you started is
"Respecting the belief of others". Do you respect beliefs other than your own?

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others
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rotorhead
October 07, 2016 10:55PM

Registered: 12 years ago
Posts: 2,440

As I said earlier.

Respecting the beliefs of others is a hot topic these days. The Muslim world seems to think that we must all respect their prophet and be careful what we say about him. They are going so far as to propose new rules in the United Nations that would limit free speech rights when it comes to religion. Should blasphemy be a crime?

Is this right? Should we be required to respect the beliefs of others or should we only be required to respect their right to have those beliefs? In my opinion people should be able to believe anything that they wish, however a belief is nothing more than an opinion and an opinion is something that is subject to questioning.

As an example. If you were to talk to an aboriginal person about their beliefs and they told you that they believe that the earth is a flat disc balanced on the back of a giant turtle, am I required to respect this opinion? This view of the world was widely held among native peoples. If I show them a picture of the earth from space am I engaging in hate speech?

What if they insist that the "Giant Turtle Theory" be taught in our public schools? If over half of the people in the country believe in the giant turtle, and they did at one point, are we all required to learn and respect the giant turtle theory?

How is this different from the "Biblical Creation Theory", the theory that the universe was created 6500 years ago in 6 days? Are we required to respect this theory and allow it to be taught in our public schools? How about the ancient alien theory, you see this theory being described on TV every week?

What level of proof or evidence should be required before an idea is accepted as something that should be respected? Are we required to respect all mythologies? Do the number of believers of a particular mythology determine the validity of a belief or is evidence required?

How do you bring about a change of "belief". When the Roman Empire switched from paganism to Christianity it was ushered in by force. The emperor declared that Christianity was the only true state religion and if you didn't like it well then off with your head! Religious/mythological beliefs have traditionally been spread by force. Look at Latin America. All good Catholics. But not until they were conquered by Spain and Portugal. Look at the Muslim world. All of North Africa conquered by the Muslims and forcefully converted to Islam.

Today we change peoples beliefs not by force but by logic. And not being able to examine beliefs and discuss them is a way of slowing down progress.

Blasphemy is a victimless crime!

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others
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rotorhead
October 07, 2016 11:33PM

Registered: 12 years ago
Posts: 2,440

Quote
Gumbo
Most likley you probably have been free to speak of Atheism your entire life if you chose too.

Legally yes. Practically no. I grew up in the south. The bible belt. When you move to a new town or a new neighborhood, the first thing the neighbors ask is "what church do you go to?". It wasn't until I went to university that I actually met people who were willing to talk about religion on an intellectual basis, not an emotional basis.

Religion evokes an emotional response from many people. This can cause an instant judgmental response. atheist=bad! It is one of the main reasons for atheists to speak out, atheists don't eat small children.

Atheists are normal people who happen to believe that there is no such thing as god. That there is no evidence to support the existence of a god. We wonder what a god is? I am not sure how you would distinguish between god and someone who is really technologically advanced. Certainly not by morality. The bible tells stories of really terrible acts performed under orders from god.

"And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts."

In what reality is killing innocent children considered moral? And this is not the only case where god calls for killing children, there are many. But abortion is bad, a fetus should be protected much more than an actual living breathing child.

From a scientific point of view, the belief in god would be considered an hypothesis. It doesn't even make it to the level of a theory. Why? Because a theory requires supporting evidence and there is no evidence to support the existence of a god. Not your god, not the Muslim god Allah nor the Hindu gods Brahma, Vishnu or Shiva. Gods are just stories in books. There is no evidence in the real world except for the imaginations of true believers. If you think there is real evidence, I would love to hear about it.

I started speaking out after watching this talk many years ago. It is important to question preconceived ideas that people have. To test their validity.

[www.ted.com]

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others

Gumbo
October 08, 2016 12:09AM

Registered: 3 years ago
Posts: 457

Well, we do have something in common.We both grew up in the southern bible belt. My parents didn't go to church nor did they care what anyone thought about it. I do understand what your talking about though.
I gave up organized religion years ago. It was a nice thoughtful discussion. Thanks Rotor.

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others
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rotorhead
October 08, 2016 02:40PM

Registered: 12 years ago
Posts: 2,440

Quote
Gumbo
Well, we do have something in common.We both grew up in the southern bible belt. My parents didn't go to church nor did they care what anyone thought about it. I do understand what your talking about though.
I gave up organized religion years ago. It was a nice thoughtful discussion. Thanks Rotor.

Enjoyed the talk. We have something else in common. We both gave up organized religion. I just went a little further and gave up the ideas that organized religion is built on, supernatural mythology.

It's funny, when I ask for evidence I never get an answer. If you don't require evidence, you can believe ANYTHING.

"Gods are just stories in books. There is no evidence in the real world except for the imaginations of true believers. If you think there is real evidence, I would love to hear about it."

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others
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rotorhead
October 09, 2016 10:58PM

Registered: 12 years ago
Posts: 2,440

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others
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rotorhead
October 29, 2016 08:01AM

Registered: 12 years ago
Posts: 2,440

I wonder about some of the responses on this thread. Some seem to want to discuss different views, others only seem to want to shut down the discussion.

Are beliefs sacred? Must they be respected? Are all beliefs equal or are some to be held above all others?

Is Christianity more sacred than Islam? Is lslam more sacred than Mormonism? What about Scientology? Respect it or laugh at it?

How about the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Do Pastafarians deserve respect? Argh!

Does belief demand evidence? If you cannot prove that god doesn't exist then is he to be respected?

If someone asks me to disprove god exists, I always say the burden of proof is on the person making he claim, the scientific argument.

Do you believe in Zeus? Why not? Can you prove he doesn't exist?

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others
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rotorhead
November 19, 2016 07:45PM

Registered: 12 years ago
Posts: 2,440

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others
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rotorhead
November 28, 2016 06:54PM

Registered: 12 years ago
Posts: 2,440

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others
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rotorhead
November 28, 2016 07:09PM

Registered: 12 years ago
Posts: 2,440

The Holy Bible... A Perfect Book or Roadmap to Doom and Despair?

The Holy Bible is considered by many the infallible word of God. It was not just written by man, but rather written by God through man. This book is the cornerstone to the Christian and Judaic religions, without this book, they have nothing to hold their beliefs to. With these two things in mind, one would think that it would have to be one heck of a book. Not only 100% correct in every manner, but chock full of wonderful teachings, pleasant miracles by the all loving God, but scientifically tested and proven as a source of answers to the unknown mysteries of our earth and universe as well.

Well as you are about to see, there are a great many errors, contradictions, and misrepresentations as far as the scientific accuracy of the Bible. The stories are often jumbled and don't match the other books. Worst of all it justifies a great deal of negative things in society such as gay bashings and abusing women and children.

[biblebabble.curbjaw.com]

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others
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rotorhead
November 29, 2016 04:58PM

Registered: 12 years ago
Posts: 2,440

Jerry Coyne, author of Faith vs. Fact: Why Science and Religion Are Incompatible was in high school listening to the Beatles’ Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band album when he had an epiphany: God does not exist. The thought terrified him. But his subsequent work as a geneticist and evolutionary biologist gave him a scientific foundation for his teenage conversion.

[news.nationalgeographic.com]

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others
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rotorhead
December 01, 2016 02:32PM

Registered: 12 years ago
Posts: 2,440

On the subject of religious belief, we relax standards of reasonableness and evidence that we rely on in every other area of our lives. We relax so totally that people believe the most ludicrous propositions, and are willing to organize their lives around them. Propositions like "Jesus is going to come back in the next fifty years and rectify every problem that human beings create"--or, in the Muslim world, "death in the right circumstances leads directly to Paradise." These beliefs are not very contaminated with good evidence.

[www.beliefnet.com]

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others
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rotorhead
December 01, 2016 02:50PM

Registered: 12 years ago
Posts: 2,440

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others
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rotorhead
December 02, 2016 04:48PM

Registered: 12 years ago
Posts: 2,440

It is time to refuse to tip-toe around people who claim respect, consideration, special treatment, or any other kind of immunity, on the grounds that they have a religious faith, as if having faith were a privilege-endowing virtue, as if it were noble to believe in unsupported claims and ancient superstitions. It is neither. Faith is a commitment to belief contrary to evidence and reason, as between them Kierkegaard and the tale of Doubting Thomas are at pains to show; their example should lay to rest the endeavours of some (from the Pope to the Southern Baptists) who try to argue that faith is other than at least non-rational, given that for Kierkegaard its virtue precisely lies in its irrationality.

[www.theguardian.com]

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others
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rotorhead
December 05, 2016 02:05PM

Registered: 12 years ago
Posts: 2,440

Hotel nightstands across the U.S. are starting to empty out.

According to a new study by hospitality analytics group STR, the percentage of hotels that offer religious materials in rooms has dropped by almost half in the last decade-- from 95 percent of in 2006 to just 48 percent this year.

“It’s because the religious books don’t fit the personality of the brands,”

[www.foxnews.com]

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others
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rotorhead
December 06, 2016 08:41PM

Registered: 12 years ago
Posts: 2,440

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others
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rotorhead
December 07, 2016 05:05PM

Registered: 12 years ago
Posts: 2,440

Around the world, people are beginning to turn their backs on religion.

For some time, researchers have observed this trend as it ripples through developed countries, with the United States standing out as the exception.

Now, a new study reveals this is no longer the case; with each passing generation, Americans too are steadily becoming less religious


[www.dailymail.co.uk]

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others

Gumbo
December 12, 2016 10:31PM

Registered: 3 years ago
Posts: 457

Rotor,
Doesn't matter a person's belief. That is absolutely true. It's easy to see as well.

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others
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rotorhead
December 12, 2016 11:17PM

Registered: 12 years ago
Posts: 2,440

Quote
Gumbo
Rotor,
Doesn't matter a person's belief. That is absolutely true. It's easy to see as well.

Religion, all of them, have a major problem. Lack of evidence. And now in many places religion has lost control. People are no longer forced to participate in a religion. Also it is becoming more acceptable to admit that you have serious doubts about whether the myths on which all religions are based are true.

Science has driven this change. Not because science teaches anything against religion instead it teaches us to be skeptical, to ask questions and to demand proof. As Carl Sagan said "Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence".

If you tell me something that is so fantastic and unlike anything that I have encountered and expect me to believe you, you better have some damn good evidence. For me, no religion has been able to provide that evidence.

Also the Internet has allowed people to exchange ideas. Today, religion mainly thrives in the least developed countries. When I said earlier that religion had lost control, I meant that people are now allowed to express their opinions about religion openly. Blasphemy has only been legal in the US for about 75 years. Before that you would be jailed if you spoke out against religion. How can you have open and honest discussion when free speech does not include god/religion.

I think it is progress to move away from supernatural beliefs.

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others
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rotorhead
December 18, 2016 07:34PM

Registered: 12 years ago
Posts: 2,440

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others
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rotorhead
December 19, 2016 06:21PM

Registered: 12 years ago
Posts: 2,440

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others
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rotorhead
December 21, 2016 06:48PM

Registered: 12 years ago
Posts: 2,440

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others
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rotorhead
December 21, 2016 08:32PM

Registered: 12 years ago
Posts: 2,440

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others
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rotorhead
December 23, 2016 03:47PM

Registered: 12 years ago
Posts: 2,440

My biased opinion is that god is not necessary. Aren't all personal opinions biased?

"In 22 of the 40 countries surveyed, the majority says it is necessary to believe in God in order to be a moral person. “This position is highly prevalent, if not universal, in Africa and the Middle East,” says the report. No surprise there, but Asian and Latin countries such as Indonesia (99 percent), Malaysia (89 percent), the Philippines (99 percent), El Salvador (93 percent), and Brazil (86 percent) all fell in the highest percentile of respondents believing belief in a god (small G) is central to having good values.

Interestingly, clear majorities in all highly developed countries do not think belief in god to be necessary for morality, with one exception only: the USA."

[www.salon.com]

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