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Re: Respecting the beliefs of others
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rotorhead
May 02, 2013 03:22PM

Registered: 12 years ago
Posts: 2,440

Quote
VT2VI
He created the Angel Lucifer knowing full well he would turn into Satan. It doesnt make sense for God to create another imortal being knowing that he would turn against him now does it? A God like figure made by God to try and lure away man from God? God (used) to appear to man and speak to them. Why not now?

He doesn't appear now and miracles don't occur now because we are more educated now.

[www.huffingtonpost.com]

Another way of saying this is that they never actually occurred, we were just too stupid to know better.

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others
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VT2VI
May 02, 2013 03:31PM

Registered: 4 years ago
Posts: 273

Precisely. thumbs up

F-F-F-Freezing in the great white north

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others
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rotorhead
May 02, 2013 03:33PM

Registered: 12 years ago
Posts: 2,440

Quote
ikory
Perhaps with my Major being Psychology I see religion as something very powerful. When a person stops using Meth because God came to him in a vision and told him to change his life. Or a drug dealer and addict changes his life because he felt the holy spirit take over his body. Although AA use of God is controversial it does works. So many people would be in a lot worse place without God. A child over coming brain surgery who wants to give up on life because it is so painful turns to god for help.

Religion can be a beautiful great thing in someone's life.

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. "
— George Bernard Shaw


Maybe they should just drink more. Substituting mythology for reality is not a long term solution. If you think that the benefits of religion outweigh the negatives then you should watch the first debate above. The audience disagrees with you.
There is only one truth. Either god exists or he doesn't. And if you decide that god exists then how do you choose from among the thousands of gods that man worships. They can't all be real, but they can all be mythological.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/2013 03:59PM by rotorhead.

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others

ikory
May 02, 2013 04:17PM

Registered: 4 years ago
Posts: 203

Superheroes is still interfering. Subhumans is cheating. However I do not think you were being serious lol. Rotorhead I wont be going to you for help with philosophy homework. When I say I am not religious you do realize what that means? If we ever get into a lords of the rings debate I already know none of it is real.

VT2VI,

The Lucifer argument still goes against free will. Satan had a choice to be good or evil. If God destroyed Satan before he was born he interfered with free will. St. Augustine responds to this argument as well stating nothing God creates is evil including Satan. St. Augustine hated the Manicheanisms who kept blaming Satan for sins of the world. So Satan is not evil he just does evil acts. If Satan caused a human to sin it would go against free will.

This also reminds me of Hitler who was going to be a painter but was rejected and than he went off to war. So many different choices happen for Hitler to become such a monster. If we could only change a few things Hitler might have been an artist.

I disagree with St. Augustine on a lot of things including his argument for the existence of God. I however find his free will argument very well done. To me it explains evil in the world very well.

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others
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rotorhead
May 02, 2013 04:28PM

Registered: 12 years ago
Posts: 2,440

Quote
ikory
Superheroes is still interfering. Subhumans is cheating. However I do not think you were being serious lol. Rotorhead I wont be going to you for help with philosophy homework. When I say I am not religious you do realize what that means? If we ever get into a lords of the rings debate I already know none of it is real.

You are correct. You shouldn't come to me for help on this. I am not interested in debating "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" or the like. It seems like such a waste of time, which produces no meaningful results.

As I said earlier, the whole discussion is built on so much improbability that you would have to prove the existence of a god and that a god has any influence on reality before the discussion would be meaningful to me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/2013 04:33PM by rotorhead.

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others

ikory
May 02, 2013 04:32PM

Registered: 4 years ago
Posts: 203

Quote
rotorhead

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. "
— George Bernard Shaw


Maybe they should just drink more. Substituting mythology for reality is not a long term solution. If you think that the benefits of religion outweigh the negatives then you should watch the first debate above. The audience disagrees with you.
There is only one truth. Either god exists or he doesn't. And if you decide that god exists then how do you choose from among the thousands of gods that man worships. They can't all be real, but they can all be mythological.

All those examples I gave were people I have or still know personally. My point is a lot of people would be dead without something more to believe in. Please do not tell me you would correct that little girl in the hospital who after brain surgery has a staph infection and turns to god for support when she wants nothing more than to die. Would you rather the meth user to be on Meth or give his life to god?

Spirituality will be with humans even 1000 years from now. I am not sure why you have so much hate towards it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/2013 04:33PM by ikory.

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others
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rotorhead
May 02, 2013 04:58PM

Registered: 12 years ago
Posts: 2,440

Quote
ikory

All those examples I gave were people I have or still know personally. My point is a lot of people would be dead without something more to believe in. Please do not tell me you would correct that little girl in the hospital who after brain surgery has a staph infection and turns to god for support when she wants nothing more than to die. Would you rather the meth user to be on Meth or give his life to god?

Spirituality will be with humans even 1000 years from now. I am not sure why you have so much hate towards it.

How can you possibly know what the outcome would have been for these people if they had not been fed fantasy to believe instead of reality. If a doctor or psychiatrist had offered these people hope based on reality the result could very well have been the same. This is another case of coincidence confirming religion. That is what "whywontgodhealamputees" is trying to say. Pick an example where the outcome could not simply be a coincidence.

I do not hate spirituality. I do not believe in it. I do not believe in the supernatural. I have never had an experience in my own life which would lead me to believe in the supernatural and have never seen any proof that it exists. Fantasies are not proof. Things that I do not believe are real: Ghosts, Spirits, Gods, Angels, Witches, Warlocks, Boogiemen, Werewolves, Vampires, An Afterlife, Heaven, Hell, Hades, Reincarnation, and many more. Now I must admit, the scientific side of me says that I must be agnostic on everything so if anyone has proof of these things, "real proof", I can be convinced. That does not mean that I should accept any crazy idea without proof. God is a crazy idea. No proof!

What does spirituality even mean? To me it implies belief in the supernatural and this is a meaningless discussion unless you can prove that the supernatural has an effect on the natural world.

Just because someone claims that belief in Superman helped them through hard times doesn't make Superman real!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/2013 05:09PM by rotorhead.

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others

ikory
May 02, 2013 05:17PM

Registered: 4 years ago
Posts: 203

Quote
rotorhead
Quote
ikory

All those examples I gave were people I have or still know personally. My point is a lot of people would be dead without something more to believe in. Please do not tell me you would correct that little girl in the hospital who after brain surgery has a staph infection and turns to god for support when she wants nothing more than to die. Would you rather the meth user to be on Meth or give his life to god?

Spirituality will be with humans even 1000 years from now. I am not sure why you have so much hate towards it.

How can you possibly know what the outcome would have been for these people if they had not been fed fantasy to believe instead of reality. If a doctor or psychiatrist had offered these people hope based on reality the result could very well have been the same. This is another case of coincidence confirming religion. That is what "whywontgodhealamputees" is trying to say. Pick an example where the outcome could not simply be a coincidence.

I do not hate spirituality. I do not believe in it. I do not believe in the supernatural. I have never had an experience in my own life which would lead me to believe in the supernatural and have never seen any proof that it exists. Fantasies are not proof. Things that I do not believe are real: Ghosts, Spirits, Gods, Angels, Witches, Warlocks, Boogiemen, Werewolves, Vampires, An Afterlife, Heaven, Hell, Hades, Reincarnation. Now I must admit, the scientific side of me says that I must be agnostic on everything so if anyone has proof of these things, "real proof", I can be convinced. That does not mean that I should accept any crazy idea without proof. God is a crazy idea. No proof!

What does spirituality even mean? To me it implies belief in the supernatural and this is a meaningless discussion unless you can prove that the supernatural has an effect on the natural world.

I do not know the outcomes without god, I just know it is not my place to disagree; only to support them.

If you have not noticed hypotheticals are very interesting to me.

Vampires are not real? Crazy talk. I really want a beer now.

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others
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rotorhead
May 02, 2013 06:22PM

Registered: 12 years ago
Posts: 2,440

Quote
ikory
I do not know the outcomes without god, I just know it is not my place to disagree; only to support them.

If you have not noticed hypotheticals are very interesting to me.

Vampires are not real? Crazy talk. I really want a beer now.

This is where we disagree. If someone tells me something crazy then I feel that I have an obligation to disagree. Supporting someone often means educating them on reality.

Since you like hypotheticals. Supposed someone told you that they believed in god. And their god had instructed them through scripture that if their children get an illness then the proper way to treat it is as the bible teaches. Healing through prayer alone. Doctors are evil.

Is it not your place to disagree? Should you simply allow their child to die and simply support their beliefs?

This is a very real threat! Should we just stand by and allow this to continue?




The American Cancer Society's take.
[www.cancer.org]

I believe it is our obligation to identify harmful delusions as such. Did you watch the first video debate above. Christopher Hitchens points out the harm done by religion.

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others

ikory
May 02, 2013 08:02PM

Registered: 4 years ago
Posts: 203

Rotorhead,

If someone is a danger to themselves or to others the authorities are obligated to step in and provide medical attention. By danger I would classify as imminent harm that will result in death.

This is dangerous grounds and we want to protect someone's first amendments rights as much as possible. Doctors are also not always correct and is why we get more than one opinion.

We use to be able to have our spouses committed because we thought they were crazy. We need to respects someone's rights if they oppose western medicine. It would be unconstitutional for the government to step in and force someone to use western medicine unless they are a danger to themselves or others.

I watched the debate I still see no harm in someone who wants to believe whatever they want. First amendment protects us from what others call delusions.

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others
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VT2VI
May 02, 2013 09:22PM

Registered: 4 years ago
Posts: 273

There was no such thing as free will before god created everything. When it was just him alone what good would free will do him? It wasn't until he created the angels etc that he created free will. Micheal the arch angel was evil and made so by god. An angel sent by god to kill on his behalf. Sounds evil to me.

I grew up in the church , and around 13 I realized just how evil god really was. I stopped going after I found out that his followers are hateful sheep. The whole "love the sinner hate the sin" BS. Most of them hate the sinner as well.

F-F-F-Freezing in the great white north

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others
avatar

rotorhead
May 02, 2013 09:30PM

Registered: 12 years ago
Posts: 2,440

Quote
ikory
Rotorhead,

If someone is a danger to themselves or to others the authorities are obligated to step in and provide medical attention. By danger I would classify as imminent harm that will result in death.

This is dangerous grounds and we want to protect someone's first amendments rights as much as possible. Doctors are also not always correct and is why we get more than one opinion.

Are this couple's first amendment rights worth killing their children? This couple have seven more children and they have already killed two. Should they be allowed to kill the other seven? How are authorities to step in if they are not aware that anything is wrong. They were on probation for killing their first child when they killed their second. After the fact authorities determined that both children could have been cured by modern western medicine. They obviously were not cured by prayer. But I guess it's OK because it was gods will that the children died. They went to a better place. Gods will be done!

Should their other seven children be removed and put in protective custody or should they be sacrificed to their parents god?

[www.huffingtonpost.com]

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others

noOne
May 03, 2013 03:49AM

Registered: 7 years ago
Posts: 1,495

Belief in biblical end-times stifling climate change action in U.S.: study

“It stands to reason that most nonbelievers would support preserving the Earth for future generations, but that end-times believers would rationally perceive such efforts to be ultimately futile, and hence ill-advised,” Barker and Bearce explained.

That very sentiment has been expressed by federal legislators. Rep. John Shimkus (R-IL) said in 2010 that he opposed action on climate change because “the Earth will end only when God declares it to be over.” He is the chairman of the Subcommittee on Environment and the Economy.

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others
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VT2VI
May 03, 2013 08:55AM

Registered: 4 years ago
Posts: 273

Thats the guy i want to run enviromental policy. thinking

F-F-F-Freezing in the great white north

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others
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iguanabanana
May 03, 2013 03:10PM

Registered: 4 years ago
Posts: 72

I've seen this vividly enacted by two previous bosses at packaging companies where I was hired to be "Director of Environmental Sustainability," but really paid with the hope I would be green wallpaper that would spruce up the company. (I resigned both positions when the truth became clear). One boss, after discussion about the creation of a "vendor score-card" that would ensure we looked at the environmental/social responsibility (as well as quoted prices) of our current/potential trading partners, said to me that global warming (it was still called global warming back then) wasn't real and if it was it was god's will. At the other job, similar sentiments were part of just as overt. Later, I was hired by a college who had received donor $$ to create a certificate program in "green business." One month into the job I was told that I came across as too much of a "tree-hugger," and instead of creating a certificate program, just do a few brown bag lunches for staff. That's the short version of how I became a grant writer and why I ran away (yes, I ran away) to the Caribbean.

Quote
noOne
Belief in biblical end-times stifling climate change action in U.S.: study

“It stands to reason that most nonbelievers would support preserving the Earth for future generations, but that end-times believers would rationally perceive such efforts to be ultimately futile, and hence ill-advised,” Barker and Bearce explained.

That very sentiment has been expressed by federal legislators. Rep. John Shimkus (R-IL) said in 2010 that he opposed action on climate change because “the Earth will end only when God declares it to be over.” He is the chairman of the Subcommittee on Environment and the Economy.

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others

ikory
May 03, 2013 03:37PM

Registered: 4 years ago
Posts: 203

Rotor, The child died therefore they need to be arrested. WTF that they were on probation and a second child died. I would have hoped the probation officer would have kept a close eye on the childrens well being. The sad thing is the rest of the children will go into the abusive foster care system or with another family member that may be against western medicine.

If I remember correctly a child was suing the government for forcing him to use western medicine.

A related topic was in a psychology class we were given a hypothetical question. A mother of four is suffering from a condition that she refuses to leave her house for any reason. She wont take her kids to school, go to the store, or even step outside. The husband has had enough and calls 911 to have an ambulance come take her away to get help. Now with therapy and/or medication she can over come this condition and be productive for her family. The answer is she is not a danger to herself or others so nothing can be done.

The topic is interesting because we want to help someone but we also want to protect someones freedoms.

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others
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iguanabanana
May 03, 2013 06:01PM

Registered: 4 years ago
Posts: 72

I know you've moved on, but I find these argument for beer over Jesus compelling:


picture share

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others

noOne
May 03, 2013 07:25PM

Registered: 7 years ago
Posts: 1,495

More peaceful Christians:

Following Sorcery-Related Killings, Papua New Guinea Mulls Firing-Squads

In February, a mob stripped, tortured and bound a woman accused of witchcraft, then burned her alive in front of hundreds of horrified witnesses in the city of Mount Hagan.

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others

noOne
May 04, 2013 05:42AM

Registered: 7 years ago
Posts: 1,495

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others
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rotorhead
May 06, 2013 11:50PM

Registered: 12 years ago
Posts: 2,440

Quote
ikory
Just for fun I will quickly gvie an argument for proof of God. Decart tried to prove his own existence with 'I think therefore I am". Maybe, just believing in God makes God exist, even if that existence is only in my thoughts it still exists. Saying God does not exist is saying my thoughts do not exist, therefore I do not exist.

I saw this and thought of your comment.

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others
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VT2VI
May 07, 2013 06:08AM

Registered: 4 years ago
Posts: 273

That's awesome Rotor! thanks for the morning chuckle. silly smiley

F-F-F-Freezing in the great white north

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others

noOne
May 09, 2013 04:44AM

Registered: 7 years ago
Posts: 1,495

Reach America's High School Anti-Christian Bullying Video Calls For An 'Army' To Save America's Souls

Public school has become godless, the teens argue. Far from what the Founding Fathers envisioned, the school system is now a place where students are rude, teachers force them to look at "pornographic" sex education images and bullies call Christians "hateful," "hypocrites" and "bigots" for their beliefs, they say.

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others

noOne
May 09, 2013 11:21AM

Registered: 7 years ago
Posts: 1,495

Vatican declares Mexican Death Saint blasphemous

It is particularly popular in areas of Mexico that have suffered from extreme violence carried out by the country's drug cartels.

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others

ikory
May 11, 2013 09:28PM

Registered: 4 years ago
Posts: 203

lol Rotor I like the cartoon.

I leave you with a quote.

'What is real? How do you define real? If real is what you can feel, smell, taste and see, then 'real' is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain."

and....

"Quadricorn's are real"

Re: Respecting the beliefs of others
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rotorhead
May 11, 2013 10:30PM

Registered: 12 years ago
Posts: 2,440

Real
Adjective
Actually existing as a thing or occurring in fact; not imagined or supposed: "Julius Caesar was a real person".

God is imaginary.

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