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Re: Good news Trump supporters! You are right, your man isn't a Fascist.

LiquidFluoride
December 15, 2015 02:55PM

Registered: 4 years ago
Posts: 1,924

Democrats = Fascist

Republicans = Fascist

That's just how it's been since at least the 70's.

Demo's grow Fascism via "Social" programs that benefit corporations

Repubs grow fascism via Military programs that benefit corporations


We can argue over which hand is better to get slapped by, left or right; but in the end we are still getting slapped.

Quote
watruw8ing4
And the more guns available, the more deaths. Until we can acknowledge the problem, and come together, instead of using the fallacy of guns don't kill people argument, hiding behind the 2nd, and dismissing parts of the problem, such as writing off children as a small but tragic stat, it will continue.

Actually, the more guns available, the LESS death.

Guns stop gun deaths, always have.

2007 Harvard study found this to be the case... Statistics back it up also.

More guns = Less crime

The fact that you could live on these islands (where gun ownership is practically illegal) and NOT understand that the problem is keeping guns from honest people is very confusing to me.

If we had gun laws like Alaska this island would turn around QUICKLY.

I would carry everywhere I went, just as I always have.

Gun owners are generally very responsible.

For example, I was assaulted this weekend, punched in the eye because I said something someone else didn't like.

I had a combat knife on me AND a sword... I did not use either on the "other guy" because my life was not in danger. This is a typical incident with an armed victim and a raging asshole perpetrator.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2015 03:04PM by LiquidFluoride.

Re: Good news Trump supporters! You are right, your man isn't a Fascist.

watruw8ing4
December 15, 2015 05:53PM

Registered: 10 years ago
Posts: 849

Quote
JohnnyU
Quote
watruw8ing4

Shortly after Sandy Hook, there was a bill with bi-partisan co-sponsors that addressed mental health. It was shot down. There have been other bills since then. So it's not being ignored. Just can't get the Republican Congress on board. Wonder why?


Look I realize its easier to have an automatic "boogey man" to blame when things dont pan out inline with your preferences , but it appears that both sides still have a way to go - [www.politico.com]

Mighty condescending of you to think I haven't done any research to back up my opinion. Cornyn's bill, as I read it, will make it easier for the involuntarily committed to get their hands on a gun immediately after discharge. This is the time when they are at most risk, because they often experience the same stressers that affect them, after being insulated for a while. That can lead to more suicide, not less. Its a shame because, otherwise, his bill looks pretty good.

Quote
JohnnyU
Quote
watruw8ing4
As for the availability of guns in relation to suicide. A gun in the home increases the risk of successful suicide. This article covers the US. But the statistics comparing other high wealth countries correlate as well.

Guns & Suicide: The Hidden Toll - Harvard Magazine

I would imagine that having drugs/medicine at home increases the odds of OD/suicide as well.

Following your logic we should be banning drugs

Did you even read the article? A gun creates an increased risk of dying over other methods. Look, my daughter is bipolar and had a gun in her house. My heart would race every time my phone rang. I suppose you've never experienced how deep the dark moods can go? And how fast? Knowing the facts stated in that article, her husband removed the guns from the house. Removing the medium which has the most chance of killing her is not a guarantee. But in the real world, it's better than reacting with a pithy "we should be banning drugs" logical fallacy.


Quote
JohnnyU
Quote
watruw8ing4
We can keep arguing over semantics and nitpick the statistics to "death". But guns, in the hands of the wrong people still cause unnecessary death on a daily basis. And the more guns available, the more deaths. Until we can acknowledge the problem, and come together, instead of using the fallacy of guns don't kill people argument, hiding behind the 2nd, and dismissing parts of the problem, such as writing off children as a small but tragic stat, it will continue.

Until folks can realize the tool is not responsible for the action, we will piss away time and money on little or no gain not dealing with the cause and treatment of suicide. And I cannot fathom the logic that with finite resources, we shouldn't prioritize our effort to provide maximum benefit. So I should mark you down for writing off the 21k+ suicide victims

I rest my case.


Quote
JohnnyU
Who knew making up others points was so much fun...

Who knew people would derive pleasure from such a serious subject?

Re: Good news Trump supporters! You are right, your man isn't a Fascist.

JohnnyU
December 15, 2015 07:05PM

Registered: 3 years ago
Posts: 446

Quote
watruw8ing4
Quote
JohnnyU
Quote
watruw8ing4

Shortly after Sandy Hook, there was a bill with bi-partisan co-sponsors that addressed mental health. It was shot down. There have been other bills since then. So it's not being ignored. Just can't get the Republican Congress on board. Wonder why?


Look I realize its easier to have an automatic "boogey man" to blame when things dont pan out inline with your preferences , but it appears that both sides still have a way to go - [www.politico.com]

Mighty condescending of you to think I haven't done any research to back up my opinion. Cornyn's bill, as I read it, will make it easier for the involuntarily committed to get their hands on a gun immediately after discharge. This is the time when they are at most risk, because they often experience the same stressers that affect them, after being insulated for a while. That can lead to more suicide, not less. Its a shame because, otherwise, his bill looks pretty good.


The article contradicts your initial claim that the GOP "Couldn't get on board" it when its the GOP offering solutions/bills

Quote
watruw8ing4
Quote
JohnnyU
Quote
watruw8ing4
As for the availability of guns in relation to suicide. A gun in the home increases the risk of successful suicide. This article covers the US. But the statistics comparing other high wealth countries correlate as well.

Guns & Suicide: The Hidden Toll - Harvard Magazine

I would imagine that having drugs/medicine at home increases the odds of OD/suicide as well.

Following your logic we should be banning drugs

Did you even read the article? A gun creates an increased risk of dying over other methods. Look, my daughter is bipolar and had a gun in her house. My heart would race every time my phone rang. I suppose you've never experienced how deep the dark moods can go? And how fast? Knowing the facts stated in that article, her husband removed the guns from the house. Removing the medium which has the most chance of killing her is not a guarantee. But in the real world, it's better than reacting with a pithy "we should be banning drugs" logical fallacy.

I hope your daughter gets the care and help she needs. I've seen suicide attempts by a family member diagnosed w/ Depression/BiPolar

Just because you dont agree with something doesn't make it a "Logical Fallacy". Again the firearm is only the tool, why not deal with the cause? If a family makes the decision to remove firearms from the house for what ever reason, I don't think anyone has an issue with it.



Quote
watruw8ing4
Quote
JohnnyU
Quote
watruw8ing4
We can keep arguing over semantics and nitpick the statistics to "death". But guns, in the hands of the wrong people still cause unnecessary death on a daily basis. And the more guns available, the more deaths. Until we can acknowledge the problem, and come together, instead of using the fallacy of guns don't kill people argument, hiding behind the 2nd, and dismissing parts of the problem, such as writing off children as a small but tragic stat, it will continue.

Until folks can realize the tool is not responsible for the action, we will piss away time and money on little or no gain not dealing with the cause and treatment of suicide. And I cannot fathom the logic that with finite resources, we shouldn't prioritize our effort to provide maximum benefit. So I should mark you down for writing off the 21k+ suicide victims

I rest my case.

Glad we agree


Quote
watruw8ing4
Quote
JohnnyU
Who knew making up others points was so much fun...

Who knew people would derive pleasure from such a serious subject?

Should I have ended it with /sarcasm to make my point clearer?

Re: Good news Trump supporters! You are right, your man isn't a Fascist.

Spartygrad95
December 15, 2015 07:13PM

Registered: 3 years ago
Posts: 1,870

The mental health system was taken apart during the Reagan Revolution where compassionate conservatives decided it was easier and cheaper to just throw the mentally ill in prison.

Re: Good news Trump supporters! You are right, your man isn't a Fascist.

watruw8ing4
December 15, 2015 08:17PM

Registered: 10 years ago
Posts: 849

Quote
LiquidFluoride

Quote
watruw8ing4
And the more guns available, the more deaths. Until we can acknowledge the problem, and come together, instead of using the fallacy of guns don't kill people argument, hiding behind the 2nd, and dismissing parts of the problem, such as writing off children as a small but tragic stat, it will continue.

Actually, the more guns available, the LESS death.

Guns stop gun deaths, always have.

2007 Harvard study found this to be the case... Statistics back it up also.

More guns = Less crime

The fact that you could live on these islands (where gun ownership is practically illegal) and NOT understand that the problem is keeping guns from honest people is very confusing to me.

If we had gun laws like Alaska this island would turn around QUICKLY.

I would carry everywhere I went, just as I always have.

Gun owners are generally very responsible.

For example, I was assaulted this weekend, punched in the eye because I said something someone else didn't like.

I had a combat knife on me AND a sword... I did not use either on the "other guy" because my life was not in danger. This is a typical incident with an armed victim and a raging asshole perpetrator.

How about something a little more recent, also done in part by Harvard:
The Atlantic

And the international statistics do not back you up either. But, as I pointed out in my previous post, it's useless to nitpick stats, so I won't.

I'm not sure what makes you certain that being able to carry here would make the violence go away. Sure, you'd possibly be able to protect yourself if you had to, although anecdotal interviews from some arms trainers disagree, citing that even those with the best intentions must be mentally, as well as physically trained. Regardless, you seem to imply I'm against it. I'm not.

Re: Good news Trump supporters! You are right, your man isn't a Fascist.

OldTart
December 16, 2015 05:49AM

Registered: 5 years ago
Posts: 6,524

Quote
Spartygrad95
The mental health system was taken apart during the Reagan Revolution where compassionate conservatives decided it was easier and cheaper to just throw the mentally ill in prison.

Not to mention (and I know this from first hand personal experience) the thousands who were discharged with no notice back into the care of their families who were totally unequipped to deal with them. It was a disaster.

Re: Good news Trump supporters! You are right, your man isn't a Fascist.

watruw8ing4
December 16, 2015 01:01PM

Registered: 10 years ago
Posts: 849

Quote
Spartygrad95
The mental health system was taken apart during the Reagan Revolution where compassionate conservatives decided it was easier and cheaper to just throw the mentally ill in prison.

While that's sort of true, the caveat is that the governments (first in Cali, then other states and the Feds) were acting on the recommendations of the medical mental health organizations. They believed the newly developed drugs would revolutionize mental health treatment and reduce the need for inpatient services.

Cali had already experienced ill effects in more homeless and more incarcerations by the time Reagan took presidential office. But the mental health associations stayed their course. So he and Congress ignored the results too, and dropped Carter's community health initiative (which was showing promise), and continued closing doors.

Re: Good news Trump supporters! His popularity continues!
avatar

rotorhead
December 17, 2015 02:31PM

Registered: 12 years ago
Posts: 2,440

There's a common misperception that all Trump voters are white, working class men. But break down the polls and you get a very different picture of a Trump follower.

Many of them are women - possibly more than half, according to some surveys. Many have college degrees, and many don't even describe themselves as particularly conservative.

[www.bbc.com]

With all of this gun talk, it must be time to renew my NRA membership. wink

Re: Good news Trump supporters! His popularity continues!

Spartygrad95
December 17, 2015 04:17PM

Registered: 3 years ago
Posts: 1,870

Quote
rotorhead
There's a common misperception that all Trump voters are white, working class men. But break down the polls and you get a very different picture of a Trump follower.

Many of them are women - possibly more than half, according to some surveys. Many have college degrees, and many don't even describe themselves as particularly conservative.

[www.bbc.com]

With all of this gun talk, it must be time to renew my NRA membership. wink

The gun manufacturers whom the NRA represent thank you

Re: Good news Trump supporters! His popularity continues!
avatar

rotorhead
December 17, 2015 04:31PM

Registered: 12 years ago
Posts: 2,440

Quote
Spartygrad95
The gun manufacturers whom the NRA represent thank you

As a member they represent me as well. Thank You.

Re: Good news Trump supporters! His popularity continues!

Spartygrad95
December 17, 2015 05:18PM

Registered: 3 years ago
Posts: 1,870

Quote
rotorhead
Quote
Spartygrad95
The gun manufacturers whom the NRA represent thank you

As a member they represent me as well. Thank You.

If that makes you happy to believe that carry on.

Re: Good news Trump supporters! You are right, your man isn't a Fascist.

speee1dy
December 22, 2015 10:39AM

Registered: 9 years ago
Posts: 8,217

SPARTY-THAT WAS how many years ago and in no time the dems controlled the house/senates and were president, no one could undo that? seriously is that your argument.

go to gunfacts.info. legal gun ownership DOES deter crime.

taking away guns will not stop suicide, it will just change the method . my friends husband did not need a gun-he used a bridge

Re: Good news Trump supporters! You are right, your man isn't a Fascist.

LiquidFluoride
December 22, 2015 12:41PM

Registered: 4 years ago
Posts: 1,924

Quote
speee1dy
SPARTY-THAT WAS how many years ago and in no time the dems controlled the house/senates and were president, no one could undo that? seriously is that your argument.

go to gunfacts.info. legal gun ownership DOES deter crime.

taking away guns will not stop suicide, it will just change the method . my friends husband did not need a gun-he used a bridge


we just had 3 officers jump off buildings in Korea.

BAN ALL BUILDINGS (or at least the ones taller than one story!)!

Tools are never the issue, people who use them are...

Did you hear about that insanity in Vegas? killing one person and injuring 37 others Should we ban cars?

Re: Good news Trump supporters! You are right, your man isn't a Fascist.

speee1dy
December 22, 2015 01:26PM

Registered: 9 years ago
Posts: 8,217

Re: Good news Trump supporters! You are right, your man isn't a Fascist.

Alana33
December 22, 2015 01:31PM

Registered: 5 years ago
Posts: 11,580

[www.theguardian.com]

[nakedlaw.avvo.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/22/2015 01:36PM by Alana33.

Re: Good news Trump supporters! You are right, your man isn't a Fascist.

LiquidFluoride
December 22, 2015 04:11PM

Registered: 4 years ago
Posts: 1,924


Funny word twisting there...

Here's the study the top article is based on:

So the study found what again?
Quote

there was no significant correlation (P = .10) between guns per capita per country and crime rate
[www.amjmed.com]

Re: Good news Trump supporters! You are right, your man isn't a Fascist.

Alana33
December 22, 2015 06:47PM

Registered: 5 years ago
Posts: 11,580

They examined data from 27 developed countries, using gun ownership figures from the Small Arms Survey and deaths from the World Health Organisation, the National Center for Health Statistics and others. They also looked at crime rates compiled by the United Nations for an indication of the safety of each country.

More guns meant more deaths, they found. "The gun ownership rate was a strong and independent predictor of firearm-related death," says Bangalore. "Private gun ownership was highest in the US. Japan, on the other end, had an extremely low gun ownership rate. Similarly, South Africa (9.4 per 100,000) and the US (10.2 per 100,000) had extremely high firearm-related deaths, whereas the United Kingdom (0.25 per 100,000) had an extremely low rate of firearm-related deaths.

"There was a significant correlation between guns per head per country and the rate of firearm-related deaths with Japan being on one end of the spectrum and the US being on the other. This argues against the notion of more guns translating into less crime. South Africa was the only outlier in that the observed firearms-related death rate was several times higher than expected from gun ownership."

Re: Good news Trump supporters! You are right, your man isn't a Fascist.

Spartygrad95
December 22, 2015 06:58PM

Registered: 3 years ago
Posts: 1,870

So guns aren't the problem, mental illness is....

[www.dallasnews.com]

Ok!

"Go to gunfacts.org".. I literally just pissed myself. Hello.. Hello.. Echo. Lololololololol

Re: Good news Trump supporters! You are right, your man isn't a Fascist.

Alana33
December 22, 2015 08:37PM

Registered: 5 years ago
Posts: 11,580

Hey, it's Texas. What did you expect?

Re: Good news Trump supporters! You are right, your man isn't a Fascist.

Spartygrad95
December 22, 2015 08:57PM

Registered: 3 years ago
Posts: 1,870

From Texas.. Nothing. I thought they were going to secede? If at first you don't secede, try try again

Re: Good news Trump supporters! You are right, your man isn't a Fascist.

LiquidFluoride
December 23, 2015 09:19AM

Registered: 4 years ago
Posts: 1,924

Quote
Spartygrad95
So guns aren't the problem, mental illness is....

[www.dallasnews.com]


‘Conspiracy Theory’ Label Losing Insult Power, Study Shows
[www.youtube.com]

Funny that critical thinking was shunned for so long, now it's on the rise again.

Those mental health bills left far too much room for abuse; the government mishandles everything, giving them that kind of power would have been ridiculous.

Re: Good news Trump supporters! You are right, your man isn't a Fascist.

Spartygrad95
December 23, 2015 10:37AM

Registered: 3 years ago
Posts: 1,870

It had bipartisan support and was killed because of the lunatic scientologists.

Re: Good news Trump supporters! You are right, your man isn't a Fascist.

LiquidFluoride
December 23, 2015 02:12PM

Registered: 4 years ago
Posts: 1,924

Quote
Spartygrad95
It had bipartisan support and was killed because of the lunatic scientologists.

bipartisan support in texas is about like "bipartisan" support here...


These are my favorite Trump supporters:


Re: Good news Trump supporters! You are right, your man isn't a Fascist.

Spartygrad95
December 24, 2015 11:15AM

Registered: 3 years ago
Posts: 1,870

Quote
LiquidFluoride
Quote
Spartygrad95
It had bipartisan support and was killed because of the lunatic scientologists.

bipartisan support in texas is about like "bipartisan" support here...


These are my favorite Trump supporters:


I believe the guys behind those videos are from Australia and one of the just got shot from these pranks.

[au.news.yahoo.com]

Guess it doesn't matter who they support

Re: Good news Trump supporters! You are right, your man isn't a Fascist.

LiquidFluoride
December 24, 2015 11:35AM

Registered: 4 years ago
Posts: 1,924

Quote
Spartygrad95
I believe the guys behind those videos are from Australia and one of the just got shot from these pranks.

[au.news.yahoo.com]

Guess it doesn't matter who they support

yeah, tongue 'n cheek comment.. I didn't think we were actually trying to stay on topic... were we?

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