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antiqueone
(@antiqueone)
Posts: 389
Reputable Member
 

stephyjh: it seems you want to excuse illegal aliens just because they might starve in their own country. You also seem to imply that "brown-ness" or Spanish speaking qualifies you in Arizona for a search for papers. That is just hyperbole and not true. If you had listened to the governor of Arizona speak the other day, you would have heard that 87% of illegals have criminal records in their home country. She also pointed out that 1000 people a day are coming over the border. That is 365000 people a year!

You fail to mention that most illegals get fake social security numbers so they can and do use our facilities. Or they "forget" their medicaid card when they go to the hospital care for their free care. ( Hey! That's just like the VI!) You describe the young child who finds itself deported. What right did the mother have to bring that child here in the first place? You talk about your ex worrying that his job would be (and was) raided. Seems we have an unemployment rate of over 10% here right now. Why does an illegal have a right to take one of those jobs from an honest American? Let them go back to Mexico where NAFTA has caused all those jobs to go!

The borders need to be closed. After that, we can figure out what to do with all those who are here illegally.

 
Posted : April 29, 2010 7:38 pm
(@stephyjh)
Posts: 224
Estimable Member
 

As I previously explained, antiqueone, studies have shown that undocumented workers actually benefit the economy rather than detracting from it. If you care to show empirical evidence that your prejudicial claims of "taking jobs from honest Americans" and exacerbating the job crunch have even the slightest merit, I'd be more than happy to see it. Otherwise, enjoy your Tea Party.

 
Posted : April 29, 2010 9:55 pm
(@stxjill)
Posts: 215
Estimable Member
 

As I previously explained, antiqueone, studies have shown that undocumented workers actually benefit the economy rather than detracting from it. If you care to show empirical evidence that your prejudicial claims of "taking jobs from honest Americans" and exacerbating the job crunch have even the slightest merit, I'd be more than happy to see it. Otherwise, enjoy your Tea Party.

s

Are undocumented workers legal or illegal? What is the difference between right and wrong? Why has it become so difficult to distinguish between right and wrong and legal or illegal?

I moved here from Oregon, almost nine years ago. Things have changed dramatically in Oregon, where my parents still live, in the house where I grew up. They now have gang shootings frequently, and most (if not all) are Mexican drug gangs. This is in the "safe" suburb of Beaverton, Oregon ... a small town back in the day! The park across the street from my old home, where my parents still reside, is frequently scarred with Mexican gang graffiti ... constantly. My Dad and Mom (who are in their late 70's) continue to go to the park and paint over the graffiti, and call police when they see people selling drugs and spraying graffiti on the walls in the park where they have worked so hard, to make it a better place. But the negative impact continues, and on a more frequent basis, and the Mexican gangs are growing. Am I profiling? Perhaps I am, but in this case, I feel it's warranted ... when you see the people that are committing these crimes, "profiling" is warranted ... in my humble opinion. And if something happens to my parents while they're trying to keep their home and neighborhood safe, you can bet your ass I will have a much stronger opinion on this subject - I expect I'll be going to a Tea Party!

~Jill~

 
Posted : April 30, 2010 12:30 am
 lc98
(@lc98)
Posts: 1250
Noble Member
 

seems cuban illegals are given a very special privilage of the wet foot/ dry foot policy that no other illegal immigrant gets. thats completely wrong.

The reason for this falls under the banner of "political asylum," left over from the days when the Communists were this country's greatest enemy and Castro made life a lot more unpleasant for the Cuban people than it has since become.

 
Posted : April 30, 2010 8:36 am
(@speee1dy)
Posts: 8867
Illustrious Member
Topic starter
 

so fdr, shouldnt that be changed now. but again we give that to no other illegals, not even haitians who in my opinion have it so much worse than the cubans.

 
Posted : April 30, 2010 11:42 am
antiqueone
(@antiqueone)
Posts: 389
Reputable Member
 

"As I previously explained, nantiqueone, studies have shown that undocumented workers actually benefit the economy rather than detracting from it. If you care to show empirical evidence that your prejudicial claims of "taking jobs from honest Americans" and exacerbating the job crunch have even the slightest merit, I'd be more than happy to see it. Otherwise, enjoy your Tea Party." -Stephyjh

While cheap, illegal laborers do keep prices down and thus can be said to help the economy, that does not take into account the addes costs to society of the increased crime, the defacement of public property, the "free" medical care in the nations ERs, the free education (until they are caught) and that vast sums that get sent back to the mother country.

Encouraging this mass (illegal) migration is just plain wrong. It keeps "undocumented workers" in a kind of bondage: they are always in fear of being caught, they cannot become a member of society unless they perfom more illegal acts such as getting a false social security card and/or driver's license.

I am not without compassion. The borders must be closed so the problem does not get worse. Then we can work to solve the plight of the millions of illegals in this country. I am very much in favor of finding ways for those who have jobs, families and are stable to pay a fine (perhaps equal to the amount of taxes they owe or some period of public service) and a background check with subsequent expedited naturalization.

America is a land of many cultures, but all of those who have come before have learned the trade language of the country: English. The Chinese, Croats, Hmong, Irish, Scots, Germans, Ibo, Watusi, Cambodians, Thais, Japanese, Russians have all assimilated and embraced the culture. Why is it that it is only Mexicans in a California high school that put the Mexican flag above the US flag, which they turn upside down? Why is it that gangs from south of the border are terrorizing our towns? If I am prejudiced, Stephyjh, it is only against those who are arroganlty unwilling to be honest, or play by the rules, or who insult me or my country while drinking in its largesse.

 
Posted : April 30, 2010 12:02 pm
(@Tippi)
Posts: 523
Honorable Member
 

What about the children of illegals born in the USA? Deport them?

Duncan Hunter states Indeed send the kids back with their parents to Mexico.

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/politics/Children-of-Illegals-Should-Be-Deported-Hunter-92313089.html

 
Posted : April 30, 2010 12:13 pm
(@billd)
Posts: 1085
Noble Member
 

THE ISSUE IS THAT WE HAVE LAWS IN THIS COUNTRY. MOST ARE FAIR AND JUST. IF YOU GET IN ILLEGALLY THEN YOU SHOULD PLAY BY THE RULES. UNFORTUNATELY WASHINGTON HAS DETERMINED THAT IT CAN GET MORE VOTES AND HENCE GET RE-ELECTED IF WE GRANT ALL 12,000,000 ILLEGALS (IT IS PROBABLY AROUND 30,000,000) SOME SORT OF CITIZENSHIP. IT IS A SAD STATE OF AFFAIRS THAT WE HAVE COME TO IN OUR HISTORY. OUR COUNTRY WAS BUILT ON IMMIGRATION, LEGALLY. AND ALL OF THIS STARTED MANY MANY YEARS AGO AND WASHINGTON DID NOTHING, EXCEPT TO COUNT THE POSSIBLE VOTES.

AS FAR AS SAYING THAT THESE ILLEGALS WILL DO WORK THAT AMERICAN CITIZENS WILL NOT DO JUST WAIT UNTIL THIS RECESSION GETS LONGER AND LONGER. NOW LEGAL KIDS WHO USED TO WORK AT FAST FOOD RESTAURANTS CAN'T GET JOBS BECAUSE THEY ARE FILLED WILL ILLEGALS. ALL OF THE LANDSCAPING JOBS ARE GONE. THEY ARE FILLED WITH ILLEGALS. ALL OF THE HOME FRAMING JOBS ARE GONE BECAUSE THEY ARE FILLED WITH ILLEGALS. AND SO ON AND SO ON. HOSPITALS HAVE CLOSED IN ARIZONA, TEXAS, CALIFORNIA BECAUSE, YOU GUESSED IT, THE INFLUX OF NON-PAYING ILLEGAL PEOPLE. THERE IS ONLY ONE END TO THIS. WE WILL BECOME A THIRD WORLD NATION, WHILE WASHINGTON FIDDLES, ROME BURNS!

BUY THE WAY IT IS LAW HERE THAT YOU NEED TO PROVIDE YOUR GREEN CARD ON REQUEST. I GUESS THE PEOPLE THAT ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT THE ARIZONA LAW FORGOT THIS US FEDERAL LAW!!!!!!. WHAT IS WRONG WITH ASKING A PERSON IF THEY HAVE PAPERS? IF YOU HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR YOU WOULD NOT CARE.

BY THE WAY DID YOU KNOW THAT IN MEXICO IF YOU ARE FOUND TO BE ILLEGAL YOU ARE THROWN IN JAIL AND THEN DEPORTED, IF YOU ARE LUCKY. AND THE PRESIDENT OF MEXICO SAYS THAT THE ARIZONA LAW IS UNJUST! AND IF YOU ARE CAUGHT IN A MIDDLE EAST COUNTRY WITH YOUR PAPERS THEN YOU GO TO PRISON! NO QUESTIONS ASKED. IN AMERICA WE JUST SAY COME ON IN, THE CIVIL RIGHTS PEOPLE WILL PROTECT YOU, THE LAW IS POWERLESS.

AS FAR AS ALL OF THESE DEMONSTRATIONS THAT ARE GOING ON. IF THEY WERE TRULY AMERICAN CITIZENS THEY WOULD UNDERSTAND THAT IF WE CONTINUE THIS WAY OUR QUALITY OF LIFE WILL GO DOWN AND DOWN. THESE CIVIL RIGHT PEOPLE SHOULD UNDERSTAND THE SAME. MOST TIMES WHEN PEOPLE ARE STOPPED ON THE BORDER THEY ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG. YES THERE WILL BE CASES WHERE THE LAW WAS APPLIED WRONG. BUT SHIT HAPPENS!

WE NEED TO COME UP WITH A SOLUTION TO THIS THAT STILL HONORS THOSE THAT BECAME CITIZENS THE RIGHT WAY. I BELIEVE THAT WE NEED TO HAVE A NATIONAL REGISTRATION )SORRY CIVIL RIGHTS PEOPLE) THAT STATS WITH EVERYONE, NOT THESE CENSUS STUFF. THEN WE WILL SEE HOW LARGE THIS PROBLEM IS. THEN WE NEED TO STOP ALL IMMIGRATION. ALL.
THEN THOSE THAT ARE FOUND TO BE HERE ILLEGALLY WOULD HAVE ONE YEAR TO LEARN THE BASICS OF A LANGUAGE, GET A REAL JOB, AND IF NOT THEY WOULD NEED TO BE DEPORTED.

BUT WE NEED TO STOP THE ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION NOW!!!!!!

OF COURSE THERE IS ANOTHER OPTION. AFTER YEARS AND YEARS IF ILLEGALS COMING IN THEY WILL BE IN POWER IN WASHINGTON. THEN THEY DO WHAT THEY WANT. OF COURSE I WILL BE DEAD BY THEN, SO I WILL NOT CARE WHAT THEY DO.

BILLD

 
Posted : April 30, 2010 12:35 pm
(@stephyjh)
Posts: 224
Estimable Member
 

Antiqueone and billd, do you have any concrete empirical data to show there, any actual evidence to show, or are you just giving anecdotal examples with no proof that they're valid? I showed documented evidence, and you're answering with assertions of "this is what's happening" without proving it.
Also, billd, typing a response to someone in all caps is usually considered shouting, and it's rude as well as a strain on the eyes of those reading it. Please brush up on your basic online etiquette.

 
Posted : April 30, 2010 3:21 pm
(@STXBob)
Posts: 2138
Noble Member
 

Here is an article on the "Economic impact of illegal immigrants in the United States"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_impact_of_illegal_immigrants_in_the_United_States

It's a matter of study and debate. The data reported in the article shows points for both sides, but it seems to tilt towards showing that illegal immigration has a modest negative impact on the economy.

 
Posted : April 30, 2010 4:08 pm
(@stephyjh)
Posts: 224
Estimable Member
 

I don't know how valid a source Wikipedia is--no professor I ever had would accept it as a primary source. However, a 2006 study by the University of California-Berkeley's Institute for Research on Labor and Employment states in its abstract, "However, recent decades have also seen a growing body of nonpartisan scholarly analysis of immigration’s fiscal and economic impact in the US. An exploration of such study finds that the preponderance of evidence points to positive net fiscal and economic impacts—albeit modest ones—and negligible effects on native wages and employment rates." You can see a reprint of the study here: http://www.escholarship.org/uc/item/0xr4267w if you're interested.

 
Posted : April 30, 2010 5:39 pm
antiqueone
(@antiqueone)
Posts: 389
Reputable Member
 

Dateline: December, 2004
In hosting America's largest population of illegal immigrants, California bears a huge cost to provide basic human services for this fast growing, low-income segment of its population. A new study from the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) examines the costs of education, health care and incarceration of illegal aliens, and concludes that the costs to Californians is $10.5 billion per year.

Among the key finding of the report are that the state's already struggling K-12 education system spends approximately $7.7 billion a year to school the children of illegal aliens who now constitute 15 percent of the student body. Another $1.4 billion of the taxpayers' money goes toward providing health care to illegal aliens and their families, the same amount that is spent incarcerating illegal aliens criminals.

"California's addiction to 'cheap' illegal alien labor is bankrupting the state and posing enormous burdens on the state's shrinking middle class tax base," stated Dan Stein, President of FAIR. "Most Californians, who havyeare seen their taxes increase while public services deteriorate, already know the impact that mass illegal immigration is having on their communities, but even they may be shocked when they learn just how much of a drain illegal immigration has become."

Six years after this report California is broke. Wonder why,Stephyjh? Do you really think it is ok to break the law when you find it inconvenient, Stephyjh? What kind of integrity is that?

 
Posted : April 30, 2010 5:39 pm
(@stephyjh)
Posts: 224
Estimable Member
 

You do know that the Southern Poverty Law Center classifies FAIR, the primary source for that article, as a hate group, right? Asking their opinion on immigrants is the same as asking a KKK member about black people or a Neo-Nazi about Jews. I hardly think that's reliable. Know your sources.

 
Posted : April 30, 2010 5:45 pm
(@STXBob)
Posts: 2138
Noble Member
 

I don't know how valid a source Wikipedia is--no professor I ever had would accept it as a primary source. However, a 2006 study by the University of California-Berkeley's Institute for Research on Labor and Employment states in its abstract, "However, recent decades have also seen a growing body of nonpartisan scholarly analysis of immigration’s fiscal and economic impact in the US. An exploration of such study finds that the preponderance of evidence points to positive net fiscal and economic impacts—albeit modest ones—and negligible effects on native wages and employment rates." You can see a reprint of the study here: http://www.escholarship.org/uc/item/0xr4267w if you're interested.

Wikipedia articles usually cite their sources, as this one does. The authors often spend a lot of time writing and discussing their articles, far more than I would do, and they will often call out any deficiencies in the articles, such as lack of citations, poor style, bias, etc. I consider Wikipedia articles to be a good compilation of information.

The article which you referenced seems to discuss all immigration. I think the current debate is about illegal immigration.

 
Posted : April 30, 2010 6:07 pm
antiqueone
(@antiqueone)
Posts: 389
Reputable Member
 

Dan Stein, President
Prior to joining FAIR in 1982, Dan was executive director of the Immigration Reform Law Institute. His legal experience includes private practice and as congressional staff. He has testified more than 50 time before Congress. Cited in the media as "America's best known immigration reformer," he has appeared on virtually every significant TV and radio news/talk program in America and has contributed commentaries to a vast number of print media outlets.

So. If you think there is a "right:" and a "wrong" way to immigrate and if you think breaking the law is actually breaking the law then you are a hate group? Sorry Steph. I don't condone breaking the law. I don't believe in situational ethics. And that's all I have to say about that.

 
Posted : April 30, 2010 11:00 pm
(@Ms_Information)
Posts: 411
Reputable Member
 

It is so upsetting to read some of these comments. When posters like Antique,billd,and jill say certain things, it makes me wonder what our future holds. They seem so full of hate and mistrust of people with darker complexions that I wonder how they can be happy in the Virgin Islands. There are no simple answers to making things better. Fear and ignorance is not the way.

 
Posted : May 1, 2010 2:16 am
(@terry)
Posts: 2552
Famed Member
 

I doubt that complexion has anything to do with it. I'm sure if the Canadians were sneaking across the border, taking jobs from people, clogging abd bankrupting the medical system, living off of the wellfare system (anchor babies), comitting a large percentage of the crime, importing Gand violence, demanding that we include on all of our legal doctuments and teach and speak French they would be just as upset!

There are a lot of hard working people who would love to become legal, try to fit in to the customs of the new land. However they are overshadowed by the ones who don't!

 
Posted : May 1, 2010 12:37 pm
antiqueone
(@antiqueone)
Posts: 389
Reputable Member
 

Ms Information: since when does honor, honesty, integrity, concern for my country, concern for all the legal immigrants, but disdain for all the criminals who waltz into our country expecting to be able to get free medical care (by using fake medicaid cards) free education (until they are caught) become hate, mistrust, fear and ignorance? That is a typical "progressive" tactic: to slam the opoposition and impugn it with insults instead of actively engaging in the conversation. As far as I can tell, you haven't offered up any useful solutions to what has become a huge problem. Who, then, is the hateful, mistrustful, fearful ingorant one? You perhaps?

The idea that there are no simple answers to making things better is a cop out. Obeying the law is simple. Immigrating legally is simple (although it needs to be simpler) Not being a criminal is simple. Not using someone elses money is simple. Learning a new language is simple if you put your mind to it.

I learned to drive on the left when I came here instead of demanding that everyone change and drive on the right. I learned to say good morning and good night before digging into a conversation (well, I used to do that before, too!) I learned to be patient while the bank provided only one teller for a line of 20 people and while the check out lady had a conversation with her fellow employees before doing her job. These days I sometimes join in the conversation, too. Why do Americans not have the right to expect the same courtesy from foreigners who want to come to America? Why do we have to translate all our signs and legal documents into Spanish? Why not French? There are an awful lot of French Canadians on our other border! If we have to be bilingual, why can't it be English and Swahili or Mandarin Chinese? Why are we the only country in the world that actually expects others to disrespect our border integrity? Why are we the ones that every other country expects to come to help when disaster strikes, but also the only country no one helps when disaster hits us?

I don't hate, am not prejudiced against skin color, in fact, I love the variety of tones we see here. I do not fear and am not ignorant. I do not, however, have respect for lying, cheating, stealing or breaking the law.

 
Posted : May 1, 2010 12:38 pm
(@dougtamjj)
Posts: 2596
Famed Member
(@STXBob)
Posts: 2138
Noble Member
 

dougtamjj: As a courtesy to your fellow readers, rather than just posting a link, please provide a hint of what we're in for, such as the title of the article, or a quote from it, or a summary. I think most people will ignore the mystery link otherwise.

 
Posted : May 1, 2010 2:48 pm
(@dougtamjj)
Posts: 2596
Famed Member
 

Sorry STXBob. I guess I am not up on posting link etiquette.:-) I just thought it was an interesting article pertaining to the conversation. For anyone hesitant to open the link it is about a woman's opinion on illegal immigration.

 
Posted : May 1, 2010 3:02 pm
(@stephyjh)
Posts: 224
Estimable Member
 

Yep...starts out talking about how she thinks people should have to come here legally like her great-grandparents who taught her such great respect for the law...right before the grandmother got deported for smuggling drugs in. And says that she "wears with pride" the label of racist.

 
Posted : May 1, 2010 4:00 pm
dntw8up
(@dntw8up)
Posts: 1866
Noble Member
 

And says that she "wears with pride" the label of racist.

Actually it says she is proud to be called a racist when racism is defined as a Latino, like her, supporting the deportation of illegal aliens. It is a tongue-in-cheek remark, since racism is only defined that way by ignorant individuals.

 
Posted : May 1, 2010 9:22 pm
Novanut
(@novanut)
Posts: 905
Prominent Member
 

Dear Stephy,

After reading some of your comments I just couldn't help weighing in. Sorry if your toes get bruised.

Isn't the United States a great place to live, where you can express your opinions on things like illegal immigration, racial profiling and other politically correct/incorrect terms without being harassed by the government or local police? Did you ever stop to think how these 'rights' came to be? Go ahead, think about it. I'll wait... OK, that's enough. I shamelessly admit that I was born a white, American citizen. Does that give me the right to disagree with your, seemingly, far left ideas of passionate feelings for the downtrodden illegals from South of the boarder, and beyond, that they should be allowed the 'rights' and privileges of us who were born here? Damn right it does! And you may call me whatever 'name' you wish to describe my feelings on this matter, for that is Your Right as an American (assuming you 'are' an American)... A scholar on American history, I'm not but I feel I know enough to believe in our founding fathers that common sense on issues like tens of thousands of Mexicans/Muslims/Etc. forcing their way into this country to take from it what the can without giving anything in return is just plain wrong. And Stephy, I think you know that too. But you may have been clouded by the thinking of others. Or, you may just not have any common sense to see the ultimate outcome of this mass exodus from other countries into the United States of America. Because if what you are imagining comes to pass, Stephy, you will have fostered a role in turning this great nation into a third world country, incapable of feeding it's citizens, let alone the illegal aliens who have come here to feed on the breast of America without so much as a Thank You in return. Your claims of 'little Juanito' hold no water in my court. If Pablo and Maria want to become American citizens and raise a family, let them learn English, read the constitution and recite the pledge of allegiance while they salute the American flag. I absolutely abhor the fact that Madison Avenue's marketing forced businesses to start selling dual languages to the nation because there were so many Mexicans pouring into America that they couldn't ignore the dollars they would spend if they couldn't read the labels. Look it up... So Stephy, enjoy your rights as a US citizen while you can because, if this administration has its way, we will all be speaking Muslim with a Chinese slang very soon and living in housing projects under heavy military guard. Meanwhile, I will enjoy what time I have left here on one of the most beautiful islands in the world; STX. How about you?

 
Posted : May 2, 2010 1:03 am
 Ric
(@Ric)
Posts: 393
Reputable Member
 

How does one prove they are here legally according to the Arizona law? If I were stopped downtown and asked to prove I was here legally, I couldn't do it. I'd have to come home and get either my passport or my birth certificate. Just wondering.

 
Posted : May 2, 2010 2:25 am
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