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We always say no to what is new and unknown ???

 
Lucy
 Lucy
(@Lucy)
Advanced Member

This is a perfect example. Saying no to the Alpine project as it is now. This is the only Right Thing going for WAPA and the VI now.

http://virginislandsdailynews.com/op-ed/we-are-not-guinea-pigs-so-senators-don-t-let-alpine-treat-us-like-one-1.1256900#axzz1jip4h0iy

Why would anyone say no without all the facts and a little common sense. The boiler combustion technology is not new. The only new part of this project is the RDF facilities that are being provided by WastAway. One might ask why are there not hundreds of WA projects all over the place. It is very expensive and only is cost effective where landfill or MSW remediation costs are high (over $100 per ton) and / or it is coupled with a power project where the selling price for the electric is over $0.12 per kWh. This is the VI.

http://www.wastaway.com/index.html

The fluff (fuel) that is produced will be compressed in the pellets for transport. However, the fluff has also been used as a soil enhancer and potting soil.

Now the common sense part. The WA process extracts all the plastics, metals, batteries, liquids, fines and other bad stuff from the MSW. Only the organic fraction of the waste stream is converted to the fluff. The process is exactly like the way puffed rice is made with steam under pressure. The material is sterilized along the way. There are many mass-burn MSW power plants all over the world going back 30 or 40 years that comply with air emission requirements and they put everything in the boiler. The Alpine-WA process has improved on that. And it kills 2 birds with one stone. Resolves the landfill issue and adds 20 NEW MWs to the VI grid - plus might help to lower electric rates some - plus it will maximize the recovery of materials that can be recycled.

People are critical of what is new, what they don't know about and what they don't like. And never offer a constructive alternative.

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Topic starter Posted : January 17, 2012 2:14 pm
SunnyCaribe
(@SunnyCaribe)
Advanced Member

... And never offer a constructive alternative.

THAT reveals the difference between a pragmatist and an obstructionist. Kicking ideas around is a good way to improve them, but most people who weigh in on any subject are simply trying to protect a hidden interest.

I once made that point on a different subject to the incomprehensibly-esteemed Chucky Hansen. She went off like a pot boiling over about how " 'Dis ain' de time for taakin' 'bout all-TOE-na-tive. We gyot to wachout fo owa selves!"

Sad.

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Posted : January 17, 2012 2:35 pm
OldTart
(@the-oldtart)
Expert

The biggest, most important and very real objection to the project is that Alpine apparently has no prior experience setting up such a plant, let alone operating one. They have no track record in the field whatsoever and the USVI will once again be the proverbial guinea pig. I don't know enough about the subject to offer an alternative but I'm very skeptical about putting faith in any company with no track record in this or any other field whose implementation is of such impact to us.

This Op Ed opinion from December 2011 should surely be of interest:

http://virginislandsdailynews.com/op-ed/alpine-s-project-again-rears-its-ugly-head-1.1242656#axzz1jjHIDSeZ

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Posted : January 17, 2012 2:57 pm
IslandHops
(@IslandHops)
Trusted Member

....Now the common sense part. The WA process extracts all the plastics, metals, batteries, liquids, fines and other bad stuff from the MSW. Only the organic fraction of the waste stream is converted to the fluff. ...

What is this garbage (excuse the pun) about diverting plastics? I was told that they want all the plastics they can get due to the high BTU content as a use for fuel.

And while I personally am on the fence regarding the WTE option, the CO2 emissions and disposal of ash waste from the process are a valid concern to all on St. Croix. And if your only diverting the organic waste, composting is an option.

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Posted : January 17, 2012 4:05 pm
DL
 DL
(@DL)
Advanced Member

... And never offer a constructive alternative.

I once made that point on a different subject to the incomprehensibly-esteemed Chucky Hansen. She went off like a pot boiling over about how " 'Dis ain' de time for taakin' 'bout all-TOE-na-tive. We gyot to wachout fo owa selves!"

Sad.

What was the point in mocking her accent? Were you surprised that people in the Virgin Islands would have Caribbean accents? Or do you always expect everyone all over the world to sound like you?

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Posted : January 17, 2012 4:30 pm
OldTart
(@the-oldtart)
Expert

What was the point in mocking her accent? Were you surprised that people in the Virgin Islands would have Caribbean accents? Or do you always expect everyone all over the world to sound like you?

Touchy touchy and off topic! 😀

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Posted : January 17, 2012 4:50 pm
Lucy
 Lucy
(@Lucy)
Advanced Member

The biggest, most important and very real objection to the project is that Alpine apparently has no prior experience setting up such a plant, let alone operating one. They have no track record in the field whatsoever and the USVI will once again be the proverbial guinea pig. I don't know enough about the subject to offer an alternative but I'm very skeptical about putting faith in any company with no track record in this or any other field whose implementation is of such impact to us.

This Op Ed opinion from December 2011 should surely be of interest:

http://virginislandsdailynews.com/op-ed/alpine-s-project-again-rears-its-ugly-head-1.1242656#axzz1jjHIDSeZ/blockquote >

Tart. True that Alpine itself as a company does not have a long track record, but the principles do. And they are the development organization and not the "designers". The RDF plant is being designed by WastAway and they have an engineering company subcontracted to design the STG Power Plant which is a standard configuration. As for WA, they are a subsidiary of Bouldin Corp. that has been in the material handling and machine design business for years. And the RDF plant design is their 3rd generation. They put in a plant at the landfill on Aruba about 3 years ago.

http://www.bouldincorp.com/

For this project to move ahead it should be on the basis of Risk. The power plant design and operation - low risk. The RDF Plants - moderate risk. The cost of project development - No Risk to the VI.

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Topic starter Posted : January 17, 2012 5:31 pm
OldTart
(@the-oldtart)
Expert

Tart. True that Alpine itself as a company does not have a long track record, but the principles do. And they are the development organization and not the "designers". The RDF plant is being designed by WastAway and they have an engineering company subcontracted to design the STG Power Plant which is a standard configuration. As for WA, they are a subsidiary of Bouldin Corp. that has been in the material handling and machine design business for years. And the RDF plant design is their 3rd generation. They put in a plant at the landfill on Aruba about 3 years ago.

http://www.bouldincorp.com/

For this project to move ahead it should be on the basis of Risk. The power plant design and operation - low risk. The RDF Plants - moderate risk. The cost of project development - No Risk to the VI.

I understand what you're saying but WA is not the entity with whom the USVI government is contracting. It is Alpine for whom this is its first and only sale of this type. The initial contract was entered into in 2009 and, since then, this waste energy project remains the only one in which Alpine is involved. I don't know if you read the link to the OpEd I provided but the author, who's a respected professional in the field, certainly makes compelling arguments in favor of more educated discussion and research on the project, as well as echoing the caution that Alpine has no record to offer.

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Posted : January 17, 2012 5:56 pm
Lucy
 Lucy
(@Lucy)
Advanced Member

....Now the common sense part. The WA process extracts all the plastics, metals, batteries, liquids, fines and other bad stuff from the MSW. Only the organic fraction of the waste stream is converted to the fluff. ...

What is this garbage (excuse the pun) about diverting plastics? I was told that they want all the plastics they can get due to the high BTU content as a use for fuel.

And while I personally am on the fence regarding the WTE option, the CO2 emissions and disposal of ash waste from the process are a valid concern to all on St. Croix. And if your only diverting the organic waste, composting is an option.

Hops. I stand corrected. It would only be the PET plastics that they try to remove for recycling. The other plastics (sheeting, etc) would go in to the RDF mix. However, plastic is made from petrochemicals (petroleum). Right now the VI is 100% on fuel oil (petroleum). So this new plant would be getting the latest and greatest air emissions remediation equipment (ESP, etc.). This is better than what we have now. Emissions would need to meet all current EPA reg.s. Ash as I understand it would be shipped off-island like the MSW would be required if the plant does not go forward.

But if there is still a concern for combustion of the plastics, then it all could be removed. Best guess on plant size would be 15 MWe in lieu of 20 MWe. The VI generates about 12 pounds of MSW per resident per day. Of that, about 30% would be organic minus the plastics.

As for composting the organic material. That is a definite option for consideration. However, what investor would put their money into such a project where there is no return on investment. How much peak moss is sold in the VI? And the VI has no money to develop a project on their own. And you get no power.

There is no perfect project and all have risk / reward. Just like there is risk in driving a car or flying in a plane. But the key is being able to manage the risk, which it seems Alpine has done. This is a very simple project compared to something like "flying a man to the moon". And we did that 40 years ago.

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Topic starter Posted : January 17, 2012 5:59 pm
Lucy
 Lucy
(@Lucy)
Advanced Member

Tart. True that Alpine itself as a company does not have a long track record, but the principles do. And they are the development organization and not the "designers". The RDF plant is being designed by WastAway and they have an engineering company subcontracted to design the STG Power Plant which is a standard configuration. As for WA, they are a subsidiary of Bouldin Corp. that has been in the material handling and machine design business for years. And the RDF plant design is their 3rd generation. They put in a plant at the landfill on Aruba about 3 years ago.

http://www.bouldincorp.com/

For this project to move ahead it should be on the basis of Risk. The power plant design and operation - low risk. The RDF Plants - moderate risk. The cost of project development - No Risk to the VI.

I understand what you're saying but WA is not the entity with whom the USVI government is contracting. It is Alpine for whom this is its first and only sale of this type. The initial contract was entered into in 2009 and, since then, this waste energy project remains the only one in which Alpine is involved. I don't know if you read the link to the OpEd I provided but the author, who's a respected professional in the field, certainly makes compelling arguments in favor of more educated discussion and research on the project, as well as echoing the caution that Alpine has no record to offer.

Tart. I did read the Op-Ed from my trusted colleague. She mentions the 3Rs. The WA pre-processing will do just that. The MWe capacity of the plant on STX is touted at 20 MWe. This is at the generator terminals. So Alpine and Susan both are right. The parasitic loads at the power plant are 20% to 25% of that; which reduces the net power output. Who knows the energy requirement for the WA process and this will be purchased from WAPA. But as long as the net power sold to WAPA meets the Alpine investor financial criteria, why should we care. WAPA only pays for what they put on the grid. So if the entire project goes upside down, the VI is out nothing, but needs to ship MSW off-island and has the same power generating capacity as now - just with old plants and no money to modernize. But it would give some islanders a job during the construction. Much like the "bridge to no where".

It is good to question and make sure that all costs are truly accounted for, but don't you think an investment group that is shelling out $300M would do the math. If it was my money, I would 3 times over.

And yes. If the VI wasn't broke and had unlimited cash reserves, then other options could be selected. Most likely the best would be LNG fired plants. NOTE, if Hovensa curtails operations it could get a whole lot worse for electric rates so we need to do something now. And Alpine is the only deal in town now.

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Topic starter Posted : January 17, 2012 6:24 pm
blu4u
(@blu4u)
Trusted Member

Given the current state of affairs and credit history, I am shocked that any outfit is willing to invest in the VI.

What are the details of WAPA deal with 7Cs? Am I correct in understanding that 7Cs, as a privately owned corporation, is holding the paper for the temporary set-up on STT? What happens when WAPA defaults?

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Posted : January 17, 2012 6:33 pm
lily1025
(@lily1025)
Advanced Member

... And never offer a constructive alternative.

I once made that point on a different subject to the incomprehensibly-esteemed Chucky Hansen. She went off like a pot boiling over about how " 'Dis ain' de time for taakin' 'bout all-TOE-na-tive. We gyot to wachout fo owa selves!"

Sad.

What was the point in mocking her accent? Were you surprised that people in the Virgin Islands would have Caribbean accents? Or do you always expect everyone all over the world to sound like you?

i think i might need a lesson on how to "quote"on this forum.THE POINT i think is not in mocking an accent,but shouldn't an elected official speak proper english???

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Posted : January 17, 2012 6:41 pm
blu4u
(@blu4u)
Trusted Member

Agreed. dialectal difference (syntax/accent) vs. "bad" language.

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Posted : January 17, 2012 6:46 pm
Lucy
 Lucy
(@Lucy)
Advanced Member

Given the current state of affairs and credit history, I am shocked that any outfit is willing to invest in the VI.

What are the details of WAPA deal with 7Cs? Am I correct in understanding that 7Cs, as a privately owned corporation, is holding the paper for the temporary set-up on STT? What happens when WAPA defaults?

The units that 7Cs are installing are mobile RO units. They can be pulled at anytime. One thing about the promotion of RO by WAPA is that they say it uses less energy. There is no fuel oil used "directly" in the process, but RO uses very high pressure pumps (1,000 psi) to squeeze the water thru the membranes. These pumps suck a lot of electric. As an example, I am familiar with a resort that has a RO system that does about 30,000 gpm per day. The pump motor is 75 HP (about 56 kW). Running 24 hours = 1,344 kWh and at $0.45 per kWh = $604.80 per day. That works out to 2 cents per gallon just for the electric. I believe the current WAPA water rate is about 2.8 cents per gallon. That does not leave much for 7Cs costs / profit and WAPA costs for distribution.

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Topic starter Posted : January 17, 2012 6:54 pm
OldTart
(@the-oldtart)
Expert

THE POINT i think is not in mocking an accent,but shouldn't an elected official speak proper english???

Surely the onus is on a newbie transplant to learn how to understand the many different local dialects?

The majority of our elected representatives know how to speak English as understood by most familiar with its common usage and surely the OP who quoted our illustrious senator in her "tarking to da people" vernacular was doing so in kind. Not that Chucky's command of the English language is either very special or understandable even when she puts forth her best efforts ... That infamous mail-order degree falsely attested via a paid-for certificate that she'd attained an academic degree of higher learning but didn't guarantee that it would ease her passage where oral communication was concerned.

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Posted : January 17, 2012 6:57 pm
blu4u
(@blu4u)
Trusted Member

Given the current state of affairs and credit history, I am shocked that any outfit is willing to invest in the VI.

What are the details of WAPA deal with 7Cs? Am I correct in understanding that 7Cs, as a privately owned corporation, is holding the paper for the temporary set-up on STT? What happens when WAPA defaults?

The units that 7Cs are installing are mobile RO units. They can be pulled at anytime. One thing about the promotion of RO by WAPA is that they say it uses less energy. There is no fuel oil used "directly" in the process, but RO uses very high pressure pumps (1,000 psi) to squeeze the water thru the membranes. These pumps suck a lot of electric. As an example, I am familiar with a resort that has a RO system that does about 30,000 gpm per day. The pump motor is 75 HP (about 56 kW). Running 24 hours = 1,344 kWh and at $0.45 per kWh = $604.80 per day. That works out to 2 cents per gallon just for the electric. I believe the current WAPA water rate is about 2.8 cents per gallon. That does not leave much for 7Cs costs / profit and WAPA costs for distribution.

And doesn't WAPA's "water" division already owe WAPA's "electric" almost 17 million from prior years? Must be more to financing set-up, right? The contract details are very hazy???
Is 56kw the running draw? (running v. start)

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Posted : January 17, 2012 6:58 pm
blu4u
(@blu4u)
Trusted Member

"Surely the onus is on a newbie transplant to learn how to understand the many different local dialects?"

So Tart..In the context of your particular "local dialect" is "newbie transplant" an insult? Please explain.

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Posted : January 17, 2012 7:23 pm
OldTart
(@the-oldtart)
Expert

"Surely the onus is on a newbie transplant to learn how to understand the many different local dialects?"

So Tart..In the context of your particular "local dialect" is "newbie transplant" an insult? Please explain.

Not at all. I was one myself and came with ears wide open, mouth shut, and no preconceived notions of what life "should be". I think what worked in my favor was that as a child I was moved around a lot. As a young adult I moved around a lot, I emigrated to the US when I was 22 and spent 17 years there before moving to the USVI. I think I had an easier time adjusting than someone who, for instance, is born and raised in Anytown USA and jumps over here thinking that because the US flag flies over the territory that it's going to be a natural extension.

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Posted : January 17, 2012 7:58 pm
Lucy
 Lucy
(@Lucy)
Advanced Member

Given the current state of affairs and credit history, I am shocked that any outfit is willing to invest in the VI.

What are the details of WAPA deal with 7Cs? Am I correct in understanding that 7Cs, as a privately owned corporation, is holding the paper for the temporary set-up on STT? What happens when WAPA defaults?

The units that 7Cs are installing are mobile RO units. They can be pulled at anytime. One thing about the promotion of RO by WAPA is that they say it uses less energy. There is no fuel oil used "directly" in the process, but RO uses very high pressure pumps (1,000 psi) to squeeze the water thru the membranes. These pumps suck a lot of electric. As an example, I am familiar with a resort that has a RO system that does about 30,000 gpm per day. The pump motor is 75 HP (about 56 kW). Running 24 hours = 1,344 kWh and at $0.45 per kWh = $604.80 per day. That works out to 2 cents per gallon just for the electric. I believe the current WAPA water rate is about 2.8 cents per gallon. That does not leave much for 7Cs costs / profit and WAPA costs for distribution.

And doesn't WAPA's "water" division already owe WAPA's "electric" almost 17 million from prior years? Must be more to financing set-up, right? The contract details are very hazy???
Is 56kw the running draw? (running v. start)

I'm not aware that the left hand (water) owes the right hand (electric). That may be a way for them to place / share blame internally. But WAPA does owe Hovensa about $30M. The 56kW is running. You will draw more amps on start up, but just briefly - not enough to count for these purposes.

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Topic starter Posted : January 17, 2012 8:20 pm
jbatl
(@jbatl)
Advanced Member

For better or worse, Chucky does speak very fluent Spanish.

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Posted : January 17, 2012 10:53 pm
Lucy
 Lucy
(@Lucy)
Advanced Member

With Hovensa curtailing its refining operations, what will that do to our LEAC? The downward spiral for the VI continues.

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Topic starter Posted : January 18, 2012 12:08 pm
blu4u
(@blu4u)
Trusted Member

Given the current state of affairs and credit history, I am shocked that any outfit is willing to invest in the VI.

What are the details of WAPA deal with 7Cs? Am I correct in understanding that 7Cs, as a privately owned corporation, is holding the paper for the temporary set-up on STT? What happens when WAPA defaults?

The units that 7Cs are installing are mobile RO units. They can be pulled at anytime. One thing about the promotion of RO by WAPA is that they say it uses less energy. There is no fuel oil used "directly" in the process, but RO uses very high pressure pumps (1,000 psi) to squeeze the water thru the membranes. These pumps suck a lot of electric. As an example, I am familiar with a resort that has a RO system that does about 30,000 gpm per day. The pump motor is 75 HP (about 56 kW). Running 24 hours = 1,344 kWh and at $0.45 per kWh = $604.80 per day. That works out to 2 cents per gallon just for the electric. I believe the current WAPA water rate is about 2.8 cents per gallon. That does not leave much for 7Cs costs / profit and WAPA costs for distribution.

And doesn't WAPA's "water" division already owe WAPA's "electric" almost 17 million from prior years? Must be more to financing set-up, right? The contract details are very hazy???
Is 56kw the running draw? (running v. start)

I'm not aware that the left hand (water) owes the right hand (electric). That may be a way for them to place / share blame internally. But WAPA does owe Hovensa about $30M. The 56kW is running. You will draw more amps on start up, but just briefly - not enough to count for these purposes.

You are correct. The interanal accounting shuffle was most likely a tool to mask looses. Came back to bite them thou:

"Fitch Ratings cited WAPA's financial instability, including more than $16 million dollars of internal debt that WAPA's water system owed the electric system in 2011."

The principals at 7Cs are smart players, I wonder what the contract details are....?

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Posted : January 18, 2012 3:35 pm
Iris Tramm
(@Iris_Tramm)
Trusted Member

Agreed. dialectal difference (syntax/accent) vs. "bad" language.

Totally OT, but Dr. Chester Copemann (a local forensic psychologist who does TONS of legal work) always transcribes the narrative portion of his expert reports where the patient describes his or her illness -- in Crucian "dialect". I always thought that was odd. I mean, it's supposed to be a professional product for use in a court of law, not an Anthony Burgess novella.

IT

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Posted : January 18, 2012 3:53 pm
onthespot
(@onthespot)
Advanced Member

I don't find it odd. A lot of words in dialect have a different "flavor" if you will, than when spoken in yankin' English, enough to perhaps change the meaning of what is said than if you took it for literal American dialect English just with an accent.

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Posted : January 19, 2012 12:40 am
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