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aussie
(@aussie)
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😀

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Posted : May 6, 2010 2:22 pm
stephyjh
(@stephyjh)
Advanced Member

AP put out a story earlier this week about the possibility of a boycott in Arizona. Give me a few minutes and I'll find the piece again.

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Posted : May 6, 2010 11:30 pm
A Davis
(@A_Davis)
Trusted Member

:@) - dun, u 2 much!

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Posted : May 7, 2010 1:23 am
roadrunner
(@roadrunner)
Trusted Member

Not sure if it made national news, but the Suns (NBA team) wore new jerseys that said, "Los Sols" as a political statement, and boy do they have a lot of angry fans!! Lots of angry letters to the local papers.

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Posted : May 7, 2010 5:27 am
stephyjh
(@stephyjh)
Advanced Member

Angry because it was (sort of) in Spanish or because they didn't get it right? (Soles, not Sols)

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Posted : May 7, 2010 5:31 am
A Davis
(@A_Davis)
Trusted Member

from a quick google there are a lot of snarky notes on proper word usage... but the spirit of what the team opted to do is what should be important. ain't that just like humans.

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Posted : May 7, 2010 11:27 am
antiqueone
(@antiqueone)
Advanced Member

This English teacher has phrased it the best I've seen yet..
Tomatoes and Cheap Labor

CHEAP TOMATOES?
This should make everyone think, be you Democrat, Republican or Independent

From a California school teacher - - -

"As you listen to the news about the student protests over illegal immigration, there are some things that you should be aware of:

I am in charge of the English-as-a-second-language department at a large southern California high school which is designated a Title 1 school, meaning that its students average lower socioeconomic and income levels

Most of the schools you are hearing about, South Gate High, Bell Gardens, Huntington Park, etc., where these students are protesting, are also Title 1 schools.

Title 1 schools are on the free breakfast and free lunch program. When I say free breakfast, I'm not talking a glass of milk and roll -- but a full breakfast and cereal bar with fruits and juices that would make a Marriott proud. The waste of this food is monumental, with trays and trays of it being dumped in the trash uneaten.

I estimate that well over 50% of these students are obese or at least moderately overweight.. About 75% or more DO have cell phones.The school also provides day care centers for the unwed teenage pregnant girls (some as young as 13) so they can attend class without the inconvenience of having to arrange for babysitters or having family watch their kids.

I was ordered to spend $700,000 on my department or risk losing funding for the upcoming year even though there was little need for anything; my budget was already substantial. I ended up buying new computers for the computer learning center, half of which, one month later, have been carved with graffiti by the appreciative students who obviously feel humbled and grateful to have a free education in America..

I have had to intervene several times for young and substitute teachers whose classes consist of many illegal immigrant students, here in the country less than 3 months, who raised so much hell with the female teachers, calling them "Putas" (whores ) and throwing things, that the teachers were in tears.

Free medical, free education, free food, day care etc., etc, etc. Is it any wonder they feel entitled to not only be in this country but to demand rights, privileges and entitlements?

To those who want to point out how much these illegal immigrants contribute to our society because they LIKE their gardener and housekeeper and they like to pay less for tomatoes: spend some time in the real world of illegal immigration and see the TRUE costs.

Higher insurance, medical facilities closing, higher medical costs, more crime, lower standards of education in our schools, overcrowding, new diseases etc.., etc, etc. For me, I'll pay more for tomatoes.

Americans, We need to wake up.

It does, however, have everything to do with culture: It involves an American third-world culture that does not value education, that accepts children getting pregnant and dropping out of school by 15 and that refuses to assimilate, and an American culture that has become so weakand worried about political correctness " that we don't have the will to do anything about it.

If this makes your blood boil, as it did mine, forward this to everyone you know.

CHEAP LABOR? Isn't that what the whole immigration issue is about?

Business doesn't want to pay a decent wage.

Consumers don't want expensive produce.

Government will tell you Americans don't want the jobs.

But the bottom line is cheap labor. The phrase "cheap labor" is a myth, a farce, and a lie. There is no such thing as "cheaplabor."

Take, for example, an illegal alien with a wife and five children. He takes a job for $5.00 or 6.00/hour. At that wage, with six dependents, he pays no income tax, yet at the end of the year, if he files an Income Tax Return, he gets an "earned income credit" of up to $3,200 free.

He qualifies for Section 8 housing and subsidized rent.

He qualifies for food stamps.

He qualifies for free (no deductible, no co-pay) health care.

His children get free breakfasts and lunches at school.

He requires bilingual teachers and books.

He qualifies for relief from high energy bills.

If they are, or become, aged, blind or disabled , they qualify for SSI. If qualified for SSI they can qualify for Medicare . All of this is at(our) taxpayer's expense.

He doesn't worry about car insurance, life insurance, or homeowners insurance.

Taxpayers provide Spanish language signs, bulletins and printed material.

He and his family receive the equivalent of $20.00 to $30.00/hour in benefits.

Working Americans are lucky to have $5.00 or $6.00/hour left after paying their bills and his.

Cheap labor? YEAH RIGHT!

THESE ARE THE QUESTION S WE SHOULD BE ADDRESSING TO THE CONGRESSIONAL MEMBERS OF EITHER PARTY. 'AND WHEN THEY LIE TO US AND DON'T DO AS THEY SAY, WE SHOULD REPLACE THEM AT ONCE!'

THIS HAS GOT TO BE PASSED ALONG TO AS MANY AS POSSIBLE OR WE WILL ALL GO DOWN THE DRAIN BECAUSE A FEW DON'T CARE

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Posted : May 7, 2010 11:29 am
STXBob
(@STXBob)
Trusted Member

antiqueone, thank you for posting that regurgitated hate piece!

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Posted : May 7, 2010 3:54 pm
antiqueone
(@antiqueone)
Advanced Member

Hate? You've gotta be kidding. There is no hate. You can't hate facts and observations of reality. This is the story of one man who has intimate knowledge of his school in California. I posted this because some of these same attitudes can be found here in the VI and they are leading directly to the downfall of the government. Entitlements are far too expensive to maintain for much longer. Greece is already melting down and the VI is not far behind.

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Posted : May 7, 2010 9:19 pm
DUN
 DUN
(@DUN)
Trusted Member

I agree antiqueone, & I forwarded it to my freind, a surgical doctor in California(who also agrees).

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Posted : May 7, 2010 11:19 pm
rotorhead
(@rotorhead)
Trusted Member

Entitlements have killed self reliance and will be the downfall of the country. They take away the incentive to excel. When those who excel are punished and those who fail are rewarded the downward spiral has started.

Our schools are moving toward pass-fail courses, we can't have someone feeling bad because they get a lower grade than someone else. Our government mandates special classes for special needs children often at the expense of the gifted children.

The philosophy seems to be that those who contribute least deserve the most. At what point was the government mandated to do wealth redistribution?

legal immigration = good.
illegal immigration = bad.

Have you looked at the immigration rules for Mexico?

You have to prove that you have no criminal record.
You have to prove that you have the financial means to support yourself without burdening the government.
You have to prove that you are in good health.
If you expect to work you have to prove that you have a skill that is needed.

http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/lillpop022707.htm

Why shouldn't we welcome them the same way they welcome us?

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Posted : May 8, 2010 12:34 am
stephyjh
(@stephyjh)
Advanced Member

Yes, it's hate. It's also false. ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS ARE INELIGIBLE TO RECEIVE PUBLIC ASSISTANCE. Anyone who receives a payroll check PAYS TAXES. The difference is that an illegal immigrant can NOT file a federal tax return, making him ineligible for an earned income credit or even a refund check. Check your pointy hood at the door, and check your facts, thank you very much.

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Posted : May 8, 2010 12:39 am
rotorhead
(@rotorhead)
Trusted Member

Many illegal immigrants work for cash! That means no taxes.
Many illegal immigrants go to the local hospital emergency room for all medical care. No questions asked.
Many illegal immigrants send their children to public schools. No questions asked.

This means no taxes paid but public services used.

The stupidest rule of all is that we declare the children of illegal immigrants born here to be US Citizens. The rule should only allow the children of legal immigrants born here to be US Citizens.

It is simple; illegal immigration is illegal and should be punished not rewarded.

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Posted : May 8, 2010 12:51 am
poorthang
(@poorthang)
Advanced Member

Just a question? If all the illegals were so good for the country then why in the hell is everything so F"d up? ..... Class ....? what's your answer ? " Oh Mr. poorthang , I think I know". Okay Jonnie tell the rest of the class please....". Is it because they AERN'T good for the country.."...... Yes Jonnie THAT IS EXACTLY RIGHT..Cheap cheap labor drives down the wages for everyone thus creating No middle class which results in a vacuum of wage earners. thus creating fewer tax payers and creating a nightmare for any Government .Just think class if we allowed all those chinese people in also .....we'd all be eatin rice and beans.....It's not about Race it's simple economics 101..
Just remember this class .....when people start talking about their survival ,..it won't be preatty .....and one day you may have to make choices that you'd never think you'd have to make....

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Posted : May 8, 2010 1:26 am
Surfer33
(@Surfer33)
Advanced Member

Immigration is an absolute necessity for Uncle Sam's survival. Immigration is what makes this country achieve superiority over other nations.
For all you xenophobes out there, relax. This country is big enough for all to enjoy and prosper. We are all blessed to be in this country.

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Posted : May 8, 2010 2:19 am
stephyjh
(@stephyjh)
Advanced Member

Historically, anytime the economy has taken a downturn, the largest ethnic group that hadn't yet become part of the cultural mainstream has been blamed. It keeps repeating itself--Native American, Irish, Polish, newly freed slaves, Chinese, and now Hispanics and Arabs. But the fact that people will be considered guilty until proven innocent is a direct violation of the constitution and sets a precedent for the same treatment in other matters, thus completely voiding the justice system on which this country was founded. How are you people so short-sighted as to think this is a good thing?
You want to know why the economy is in the toilet? It's not because of immigrants. It's because Americans are greedy. Greed led to the desire for more profit, so companies went where the cheap labor was. Greed led to taking out home mortgages beyond the buyer's means, thus leading to the credit crunch. Greed led to an oil war in Iraq that had nothing to do with al-Qaeda and has cost us dearly in money and in human lives. Greed led to the high wages auto workers demanded, thus putting the auto industry in its current position. But immigrants are taking the fall, just as they have since this country began, because Americans don't want to admit that we as a country screwed up our finances. It's easier to blame someone else than to take responsibility for our own actions.

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Posted : May 8, 2010 2:49 am
rotorhead
(@rotorhead)
Trusted Member

Stephyjh,
Who is considered quilty until proven innocent? If you are in the country illegally then you are quilty of a crime, period. If you are in the country legally then you are not. Race has nothing to do with it. Legal immigration is good for the country; illegal immigration is bad for the country.

Are you suggesting that we open the borders and let anyone in who wants in with no controls? How many countries do you know of which allow that?

BTW, I disagree with your analysis of the causes for the country's various problems.

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Posted : May 8, 2010 4:17 am
stephyjh
(@stephyjh)
Advanced Member

The idea that people can be stopped on suspicion of being illegal is an assumption that they're doing something illegal, which they will then have to prove wrong. That's guilty until proven innocent. It's an end run around the Constitution. Try paying attention to a news source other than FOX and you might get some actual information.

I'm not saying anything about the borders. I'm saying that if undocumented immigration is a crime, then it's at worst akin to shoplifting food to avoid starvation, and that the solution is to address the root of the problem (abject poverty) rather than the symptom (immigration). I'm also saying that the proponents of this system are losing sight of a very important concept: that the people involved are human beings just trying to survive. I have yet to see a reputable source quoted in favor of the bill, at least in this thread--rather, people are quoting hate groups, drug smugglers' relatives, Wikipedia, and forwarded emails of dubious provenance. Furthermore, it is impossible to maintain this "us or them" attitude that is necessary to even consider such a bill after getting to know the people involved. The only way to excuse human rights violations written into unconstitutional law is to dehumanize the victims, and I'm seeing a lot of this here. I'm surprised--I was expecting a little more compassion from a group of reasonable adults.

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Posted : May 8, 2010 5:32 am
roadrunner
(@roadrunner)
Trusted Member

My neighbor was once confronted by the police while picking the lock on his own home after he accidentally locked himself out. (A neighbor who didn't know him called 911, thinking she was doing a good deed.) He pulled out his driver's license, on which was printed the address of the lock he was picking. Guilty until proven innocent. It's not a new concept.

It's not that I don't feel compassion for these people on an individual basis. I do. I've spoken with many of them. I can't imagine not being able to feed my family. I can't imagine being so destitute that sneaking into another country seems like a good idea. I just don't feel that it's up to me to save the entire world. I also feel compassion for the American children who are living on the streets of our own country, but I'm not taking them all into my own home to care for them. I can't -- I'd be out of money almost overnight, and then I'd be out on the streets myself, thus becoming part of the problem rather than the solution. The U.S. can't take in the destitute from the rest of the entire world... we just can't handle it financially, greedy or not. We will become part of the problem eventually. The governments of Mexico and other countries need major improvements so that they can take care of their own citizens rather than draining the resources of other nations, which are not infinite. I would advocate putting our money into improvement of Mexico, but I fear that it would go straight to the pockets of those in power and would never reach those who need it most.

I agree... legal immigration is great and makes our country the melting pot that it is. Illegal immigration is a whole different animal.

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Posted : May 8, 2010 7:27 am
rotorhead
(@rotorhead)
Trusted Member

The idea that people can be stopped on suspicion of being illegal is an assumption that they're doing something illegal, which they will then have to prove wrong. That's guilty until proven innocent. It's an end run around the Constitution. Try paying attention to a news source other than FOX and you might get some actual information.

There is no end run around the constitution. The police have always been able to stop you and ask for identification. It's a simple concept, if you are legal then carry ID with you. I always do and I have been stopped before. The only thing that changes is that the AZ police are now able to enforce things that were already required by federal law.

This is not about Fox news, the law is popular. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20004030-503544.html

I'm not saying anything about the borders. I'm saying that if undocumented immigration is a crime, then it's at worst akin to shoplifting food to avoid starvation, and that the solution is to address the root of the problem (abject poverty) rather than the symptom (immigration). I'm also saying that the proponents of this system are losing sight of a very important concept: that the people involved are human beings just trying to survive. I have yet to see a reputable source quoted in favor of the bill, at least in this thread--rather, people are quoting hate groups, drug smugglers' relatives, Wikipedia, and forwarded emails of dubious provenance. Furthermore, it is impossible to maintain this "us or them" attitude that is necessary to even consider such a bill after getting to know the people involved. The only way to excuse human rights violations written into unconstitutional law is to dehumanize the victims, and I'm seeing a lot of this here. I'm surprised--I was expecting a little more compassion from a group of reasonable adults.

Why should illegal immigration be ignored? It is a crime. In Mexico it is a felony and you are jailed immediately and held, not simply deported. If you want to see a reputable source in favor of this bill then check the above article. The majority of the people in this country favor this bill. That's a pretty reputable source. The majority of people in this country would like to see uncontrolled illegal immigration stopped.

The people who immigrated illegally knew that they were violating our laws and they did it anyway. Is this the kind of new citizen that you want? Everyone wants a better way of life but that doesn't mean that it's OK to break the law. Your justification for them sneaking across the border to avoid starvation is not a valid characterization. Many of them pay someone to help sneak them across the border. They are in fact looking for a better opportunity but their grievance is with their government not the people of AZ.

They are breaking US law and should be deported or jailed and not just in AZ. We have a right to perform background checks on the people who want to immigrate to the US and we have a right to limit the number of people coming into the country. Just like all other countries do. Do you know of any country which welcomes anyone who wants in without any restrictions?

Legal immigration = Good
Illegal immigration = Bad

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Posted : May 8, 2010 8:57 am
STXBob
(@STXBob)
Trusted Member

Wow, it looks like some people never went to bed last night!

Antiqueone: “Cheap Tomatoes” is a hate piece because it portrays the subject in a negative light. In this case, it makes illegal immigrants look like contemptible leeches. How do we know that it’s, “facts and observations of reality?” It has no named author and no citations, so there is no way to check the sources. It contains fantastic allegations and urges the reader to forward it to everybody they know. In that regard, it resembles a hoax email.

Rotorhead asked, “At what point was the government mandated to do wealth redistribution?” It started with FDR’s New Deal.

Stephyjh: You wrote that, “people will be considered guilty until proven innocent.” Presumption of innocence means the burden of proof of guilt (ie: conviction) is on the prosecution, rather than on the defendant. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presumption_of_innocence It does not preclude police from acting on probable cause. Perhaps you mean to complain about unreasonable search and seizure instead. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unreasonable_search_and_seizure

Stephyjh: What’s wrong with Wikipedia? Their authors have written and compiled extensive information which would take me forever to find on my own, and their sources are usually cited.

The Arizona law is not as evil as some people think. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_Immigration_Law :
“On April 30 [2010], the Arizona legislature passed, and Governor Brewer signed, House Bill 2162, which modified the law that had been signed a week earlier, with the amended text stating that "prosecutors would not investigate complaints based on race, color or national origin."[25] The new text also states that police may only investigate immigration status incident to a "lawful stop, detention, or arrest", lowers the original fine from a minimum of $500 to a maximum of $100, and changes incarceration limits from 6 months to 20 days for first-time offenders.”

So in this law, racial profiling is not allowed, and nobody can be stopped simply because they are suspected of being an illegal immigrant. They can be asked for papers only if they are stopped for something else first. Time will tell how this law is actually implemented, and whether it’s constitutional.

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Posted : May 8, 2010 11:14 am
antiqueone
(@antiqueone)
Advanced Member

STXBob~ You may be right about that email. I frankly don't have the time nor inclination to check it for validity, but I do stand on certain premises. As rotorhead says: illegal immigration is bad, legal immigration is good. The mass insurgence of illegals has been shown to increase violent crime, put a huge burden on our health care institutions, and educational institutions. Trust is a major part of business relationships. People willing to break the law to invade another country for whatever reason cannot be assumed to value any other law that country might have.

We need legal immigrants to bring fresh ideas and energy into the country. Having lived and worked in several other countries, I know they require that aliens always carry identification. You can't work overseas without a working visa. Why should it be different in the US? What is so wrong with asking people to obey the law?

It is time we stopped being Mexican-Americans, African-Americans, Chinese-Americans or Irish-Americans, all of which are divisive in nature, and started being just plain Americans. If you want to be one of us, then BE one of us. Do it legally, fairly, honestly. Work hard, educate yourself, and progress. There is no limit to how far you can go in America, but don't expect anyone to give you a free ride. If you fall down, we will pick you up, dust you off and get you back on your horse. but we won't carry you.

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Posted : May 8, 2010 12:32 pm
stephyjh
(@stephyjh)
Advanced Member

What's wrong with Wikipedia? Well, here it is from the founder's own words: Wikipedia creator's take. If he gets, in his own words, "10 emails a week" saying that people used his site and got wrong information, that makes it pretty clear that there are questions of its reliability.

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Posted : May 8, 2010 2:06 pm
STXBob
(@STXBob)
Trusted Member

OK, Wikipedia is not appropriate for academic work, but the professors aren't grading us here. And when something seems wrong or missing from Wikipedia, then I look elsewhere.

If there is something that I have quoted from Wikipedia which seems wrong, please tell me, and I’ll see if I can easily find some other source. I would prefer that you question the individual assertions, rather than Wikipedia as a whole.

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Posted : May 8, 2010 4:38 pm
roadrunner
(@roadrunner)
Trusted Member

Wow, it looks like some people never went to bed last night!

Some of us just work weird hours! *-)

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Posted : May 8, 2010 7:34 pm
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