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JohnOTD
(@JohnOTD)
Advanced Member

L,

You keep saying "these are not my views", yet you are perpetuating them as your own. Please look at the sources for your argument. I don't think a medical journal is necessarily qualified to determine the effectiveness of firearm policies or regulations. I think the doc's over at the NEJM should stick to what they know which is medicine. Beyond that, the NEJM stats have been discredited; I am going to have to find my references on that, so for now, informing you that they have been discredited will have to suffice.

In response to your latter post where you talk about being unarmed giving your assailant less of a reason to kill you, I'm almost at a loss for words...almost. If you are unarmed, your assailant has less of a reason to restrain themselves in how they treat you. A robbery could turn into a beating, it could turn into rape, it could turn into murder, and you have no physical recourse. Is the person who was almost raped and murdered but who killed their attacker morally inferior to the person who refused to defend themselves and is now dead?

Neil,

Per concealed carry law, you cannot draw your firearm unless your life is threatened. In fact, in concealed carry classes, you are taught to relinquish your belongings if your life is not threatened. No reasonable CCL holder will draw his firearm to 'protect his wallet' unless their is already a firearm pointed at him, in which case he is protecting his life, not his wallet.

________

Please understand I am not trying to be malicious to anyone or badger them. I enjoy healthy respectful discussion.

Another note: A firearm is a tool, not a weapon.

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Posted : September 29, 2009 8:35 am
antiqueone
(@antiqueone)
Advanced Member

John is right. The NEJM stats have been discredited and particularly that MD's methodology has been called into question.

As far as weapons go, a machete is a weapon, so is a kitchen knife, a sword, a pencil, keys, a shoe, a tree branch, etc, etc. Firearms are, in some but not all, cases a better tool for disarming or stopping an assailant. I, too, wish there were no guns...they are too loud.....but until the criminals are all weapon-free,,,,,,I will keep my tools where I can reach them.

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Posted : September 29, 2009 11:26 am
Michaelds9
(@Michaelds9)
Advanced Member

I am aware this is a systemic problem and not going to change anytime soon.

Please don't give me platitudes about changing things tomorrow as I want me and mine to survive today.

For those who are opposed to law abiding citizens arming themselves for self protection against those who ARE armed and NOT law abiding just exactly WHAT would you have those in the first group do to protect themselves from those in the second group?

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Posted : September 29, 2009 1:57 pm
Lizard
(@Lizard)
Trusted Member

"Kevlar"

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Posted : September 29, 2009 2:07 pm
Michaelds9
(@Michaelds9)
Advanced Member

"Kevlar"

Thank you for your thoughtful and reasoned response and valuable contribution to this discussion.

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Posted : September 29, 2009 2:13 pm
Lizard
(@Lizard)
Trusted Member

Michael9,
To assume anyone could give you an answer to your question, what reasoned and valuable contribution do you expect. You want to hear (Arm yourself) Shoot back. How about more police /better benefits. But you don't want to hear that ,sounds like you're looking for that elusive one answer fits all. Let me know when you get the answer you're looking for.

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Posted : September 29, 2009 2:27 pm
antiqueone
(@antiqueone)
Advanced Member

more police, honest police, well-trained police, proper education, prayer back in schools, fathers encouraged to be present in the family. Limits on generational welfare. No increase in welfare money if you have more babies. These would be a good start.

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Posted : September 29, 2009 3:20 pm
JohnOTD
(@JohnOTD)
Advanced Member

Forgive me if I am overvaluing individual liberty here, but I don't think "more cops" is the answer. I think that is a dangerous road towards a police state. Following that train of thought to its logical conclusion it becomes "A cop on every corner". At that point, citizens live in fear of citation for minuscule violations of law such as not wearing a seat belt or not coming to a complete stop at a stop sign where there are clearly no other cars coming from any direction; neither of these (and many other things prevented by law) endanger the public but are intrusions into the decision making ability of individuals "for their safety". Sorry, but I don't feel the need to be protected from myself; if I make a decision that harms me, I will recover from it on my own, thank you very much.

The true solution is to allow those citizens who choose to be responsibly armed to do so. Another aid in the process would be to encourage individual responsibility once again. When people value hard work, less people will be inclined to make the quick buck that crime brings.

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Posted : September 29, 2009 4:18 pm
JohnOTD
(@JohnOTD)
Advanced Member

Here's something I found that I think is relevant to my last post:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/37473.html

http://www.myfoxchicago.com/dpp/news/metro/video_derrion_albert

There was a "gang fight" in Chicago with police nearby. The police did not intervene and now a student who wasn't in either gang is dead. While this doesn't speak about all cops, it just goes to show that police are first concerned with their safety, not yours.

Another interesting article:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/037567.html

An U.S. Senator who would like for you and I to not have firearms has defended his life with (SURPRISE!) a firearm. O, the hypocrisy!

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Posted : September 29, 2009 4:29 pm
Lizard
(@Lizard)
Trusted Member

JohnOTD,
Think you ought to spend a little more time in the saddle before you attempt that race. Welcome to the USVI.

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Posted : September 29, 2009 5:19 pm
stiphy
(@stiphy)
Trusted Member

Actually in 1998 Maryland governor Paris Glendenning tried to ban Kevlar/bulletproof vests! http://www.mail-archive.com/justnetnews@nlectc.org/msg00021.html. I'm not sure if it ever passed though, couldn't find that answer in the 2 minutes I had to search.

This sort of proposal really does give a lot of ammo to the pro gun-rights folks claim that its not just guns that these people are trying to ban but the right to protect oneself.

Sean

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Posted : September 29, 2009 5:52 pm
dntw8up
(@dntw8up)
Trusted Member

more police, honest police, well-trained police, proper education, prayer back in schools, fathers encouraged to be present in the family. Limits on generational welfare. No increase in welfare money if you have more babies. These would be a good start.

Many heads of households are single mothers, even though fathers receive just as much encouragement as mothers to be present in the family, so encouragement is not the issue. Prayer does not belong in public schools. And withholding welfare harms children, not irresponsible parents.

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Posted : September 29, 2009 5:52 pm
Michaelds9
(@Michaelds9)
Advanced Member

Though quoting oneself is not generally considered good form I'm going to do so anyway and add a two word edit at the end of the last sentence......

I am aware this is a systemic problem and not going to change anytime soon.

Please don't give me platitudes about changing things tomorrow as I want me and mine to survive today.

For those who are opposed to law abiding citizens arming themselves for self protection against those who ARE armed and NOT law abiding just exactly WHAT would you have those in the first group do to protect themselves from those in the second group RIGHT NOW?

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Posted : September 29, 2009 6:49 pm
aussie
(@aussie)
Trusted Member

Greetings all. I haven't had a chance to verify any of this. I just received it in an email and thought that, if true, people would want to know this.

Subject: Guns you own to be itemized on your 2009 tax return

Please read below and take action with your representatives.

Senate Bill SB-2099 will require us to put on our 2009 1040 federal tax form all guns that you have or own. It may require fingerprints and a tax of $50 per gun. This bill was introduced on Feb 24. This bill will become public knowledge 30 days20after it is voted into law.

This is an amendment to the Internal Revenue Act of 1986. This means that the Finance Committee can pass this without the Senate voting on it at all. The full text of the proposed amendment is on the U.S. Senate homepage, http://www.senate..gov/

You can find the bill by doing a search by the bill number, SB-2099. You know who to call, & I strongly suggest you do so. Please send a copy of this e-mail to every gun owner you know.

< http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h45/text

Congress is now starting on the firearms confiscation bill. If it passes, gun owners will become criminals if you don't fully comply.

It has started.

Very Important for you to be aware of a new bill HR 45 introduced into the House. This is the Blair Holt Firearm Licensing & Record of Sale Act of 2009.

Even gun shop owners didn't know about this because the government is trying to fly it under the radar.

To find out about this - go to any government website and type in HR 45 or Google HR 45 Blair Holt Firearm Licensing & Record of Sales Act of 2009. You will get all the information.

Basically this would make it illegal to own a firearm - any rifle with a clip or ANY pistol unless:

It is registered -You are fingerprinted -You supply a current Driver's License -You supply yourSocial Security Number - You will submit to a physical & mental evaluation at any time of their choosing - Each update - change or ownership through private or public sale must be reported and costs $25 - Failure to do so you automatically lose the right to own a firearm and are subject up to a year in jail. - There is a child provision clause on page 16 section 305 stating a child-access provision. Gun must be locked and inaccessible to any child under 18. - They would have the right to come and inspect th at you are storing your gun safely away from accessibility to children and fine is punishable for up to 5 yrs. in prison.

If you think this is a joke - go to the website and take your pick of many options to read this. It is long and lengthy. But, more and more people are becoming aware of this. Pass the word along. Any hunters in your family pass this along..

This is just a "termite" approach to complete confiscation of guns and disarming of our society to the point we have no defense - chip away a little here and there until the goal is accomplished before anyone realizes it.

This is one to act on whether you own a gun or not.

< http://thomas..loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.45 :

< http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h45/show

< http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-45

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Posted : September 29, 2009 7:50 pm
aussie
(@aussie)
Trusted Member

Please disregard my previous post. I should have checked it out before I posted.

Take a grain of truth, sprinkle it with false and misleading statements, add a heaping dollop of paranoia, and what do you have?

Ah....

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Posted : September 29, 2009 8:28 pm
Lizard
(@Lizard)
Trusted Member

With the exception of filing your gun ownership on your tax return, the State of New Jersey already does this. Think of the good that a law like this can do. If a criminal has a gun not properly registered he/she has additional Federal Charges against them. Federal Law has mandatory jail time. There is not much of a difference when you buy a car except being finger printed and a mental exam (which might not be a bad idea). Gun control is fine, it's not gun confiscation. Sometimes you have to think out of the box.

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Posted : September 29, 2009 8:34 pm
DUN
 DUN
(@DUN)
Trusted Member

Wow, that SB-2099 would have been great!
Allow the IRS to confiscate guns from people who purchased/earned them & give `em to people who don`t deserve them, or didn`t earn them in the first place (just like the IRS gives away our money!!!).

Um, where do i sign up for the free food/housing/cash/medical/guns??

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Posted : September 30, 2009 12:35 am
JohnOTD
(@JohnOTD)
Advanced Member

JohnOTD,
Think you ought to spend a little more time in the saddle before you attempt that race. Welcome to the USVI.

What does that even mean? What race are you referring to?

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Posted : September 30, 2009 2:18 am
rotorhead
(@rotorhead)
Trusted Member

JohnOTD,
Think you ought to spend a little more time in the saddle before you attempt that race. Welcome to the USVI.

What does that even mean? What race are you referring to?

Welcome to the vimovingcenter. That is just Lizard's attempt at being witty. You will soon learn that he knows everything. His job on here is to contribute as little as possible while pointing out how flawed everyone Else's opinion is.

Just humor him.... Haha Haha good one Lizard, you are soooo funny!

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Posted : September 30, 2009 2:54 am
Lizard
(@Lizard)
Trusted Member

Roto,
There is no Victory in Arm Wrestling a man with no Arms.

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Posted : September 30, 2009 5:44 am
rotorhead
(@rotorhead)
Trusted Member

Roto,
There is no Victory in Arm Wrestling a man with no Arms.

What does that mean? Oh you are so witty! Good one Lizard HaHa. I'm sure you're right whatever.............

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Posted : September 30, 2009 7:38 am
antiqueone
(@antiqueone)
Advanced Member

It's a koan, Rotor

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Posted : September 30, 2009 11:21 am
Uttica
(@Uttica)
Advanced Member

I know I would feel safer with a cop on every corner.

Put the guns in the hands of those who know how to use them.

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Posted : September 30, 2009 11:53 am
antiqueone
(@antiqueone)
Advanced Member

since a cop just got convicted of murder here on Stx, I wonder if that's really a good idea.

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Posted : September 30, 2009 1:23 pm
rotorhead
(@rotorhead)
Trusted Member

It's a koan, Rotor

Thanks antiqueone,
Wow! A koan. Lizard is just so awesome. I still don't understand what he is trying to say but then who can expect to keep up with Lizard? Now that he managed to get the atheism thread shut down I won't have to waste my time on those impure thoughts, I can just concentrate on all of the intellectual pearls that Lizard bestows on us. He is just so awesome! And deep! Koans! Wow!!!
Haha you are so witty Liz!

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Posted : September 30, 2009 3:41 pm
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