history of gun cont...
 
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history of gun control

 
terry
(@terry)
Expert

: A LITTLE GUN HISTORY

I Thought you might appreciate this . . .

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953,
about
20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and
exterminated.

------------------------------

In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million
Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and
exterminated.

------------------------------

Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total
of
13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were
rounded up and exterminated.

------------------------------
China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million
political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and
exterminated

------------------------------

Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000
Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and
exterminated.

------------------------------

Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000
Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and
exterminated.

------------------------------

Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one
million educated' people, unable to defend themselves, were
rounded up and exterminated.

-----------------------------

Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century
because of gun control: 56 million.

------------------------------

It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by
new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by their
own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500
million dollars. The first year results are now in:

List of 7 items:

Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent

Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent

Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)!

In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300
percent. Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the
criminals did not, and criminals still possess their guns!

While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in
armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the
past 12 months, since criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is
unarmed.

There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the
ELDERLY. Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public
safety has decreased, after such monumental
effort and expense was expended in successfully ridding Australian
society of guns. The Australian experience and the other historical
facts above prove it.

You won't see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians
disseminating this information.

Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes,
gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens.

Take note my fellow Americans, before it's too late!

The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them
of this history lesson.

With guns, we are 'citizens'.

Without them, we are 'subjects'

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Topic starter Posted : July 20, 2007 5:14 pm
aschultz
(@aschultz)
Advanced Member

I would not give my gun up anyway. I would just hide it like a criminal. They just keep making laws till everyone is a criminal. I am still trying to figure out what freedom is. In Davis CA you cant smoke in your car, I don't smoke but could you imagine not being from there and getting stopped for that.

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Posted : July 20, 2007 6:33 pm
antiqueone
(@antiqueone)
Advanced Member

The converse is also true. I found this article. It gives one pause:

Gun Ownership Mandatory In Kennesaw, Georgia
Crime Rate Plummets

by Chuck Baldwin

The New American magazine reminds us that March 25th marked the 16th anniversary of Kennesaw, Georgia's ordinance requiring heads of households (with certain exceptions) to keep at least one firearm in their homes.

The city's population grew from around 5,000 in 1980 to 13,000 by 1996 (latest available estimate). Yet there have been only three murders: two with knives (1984 and 1987) and one with a firearm (1997). After the law went into effect in 1982, crime against persons plummeted 74 percent compared to 1981, and fell another 45 percent in 1983 compared to 1982.

And it has stayed impressively low. In addition to nearly non-existent homicide (murders have averaged a mere 0.19 per year), the annual number of armed robberies, residential burglaries, commercial burglaries, and rapes have averaged, respectively, 1.69, 31.63, 19.75, and 2.00 through 1998.

With all the attention that has been heaped upon the lawful possession of firearms lately, you would think that a city that requires gun ownership would be the center of a media feeding frenzy. It isn't. The fact is I can't remember a major media outlet even mentioning Kennesaw. Can you?

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Posted : July 20, 2007 11:25 pm
terry
(@terry)
Expert

you won't hear any of this from the left press. It doesn't fit their agenda!!!

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Topic starter Posted : July 21, 2007 12:17 am
Betty
(@Betty)
Trusted Member

The left and the right are idiots. Get in the middle and think for yourself.

I'm all for the right to defend yourself but there are just simply way too many guns in america. Why in the world does any homeowner need an automatic to defend themselves? Why does anyone need a gun collection?

131 police officers have died this year, the highest its been in over 30 years.

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Posted : July 21, 2007 2:07 pm
terry
(@terry)
Expert

Why does anyone need a: stamp collection, record collection, book collection, etc. ? It's what they enjoy. As long as it is legal and not used in a unlawful way, it's none of my business what people collect. People who collect guns are probably more law abiding than the average, because they know they are being or going to be more looked at.
No I don't have a gun collection. I do have a couple for home defense.

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Topic starter Posted : July 21, 2007 2:35 pm
Betty
(@Betty)
Trusted Member

Why in the world do you think you need more then one for self defense? One for each hand? This is silly obviously you started this post for arguements sake I cant think of any other reason it would be on a relocation board. I do hope you know the laws are not necessarly in the homeowner side in the case of use of deadly force. You have to be able to prove they were going to do you serious bodily harm to be able to shoot someone who breaks in here. The fact that they break into your home in not an excuse to fire your weapon at them unless you want to see jail time yourself.

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Posted : July 21, 2007 4:34 pm
antiqueone
(@antiqueone)
Advanced Member

Obviously, some of us don't like guns very much. I don't own one either, just for the record. On the other hand, I think the FACTS stated at the beginning of this thread and my additional comment should be taken seriously. Emotions tell us that guns are scary and dangerous and yes, sometimes innocent people get shot.
Emotion is emotion, but facts are facts. When I consider the level of crime here I see it is more like some inner city than like a pastoral island paradise. I watched a Rasta man walking down C'sted streets with a machete hidden behind his arm while he walked.
The criminals are too prevalent and not afraid of the rest of us at all. Perhapst they should be.

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Posted : July 21, 2007 4:46 pm
Becky R
(@Becky_R)
Trusted Member

Thank you, Betty - I was wondering what this had to do with the VI in particular...or relocation. However, the and visual on having a Rasta with a machete up against a gunslinger with a 9 mm in each hand may have answered my question....

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Posted : July 21, 2007 5:36 pm
Bart
 Bart
(@Bart)
Active Member

So are guns illegal in the USVI?

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Posted : July 22, 2007 4:08 am
Jules
(@Jules)
Trusted Member

No, guns aren't illegal in the USVI but getting a permit is difficult/cumbersome.

Interesting thread. Very provocative post by Terry. I don't have any way to verify the contents, but it is food for thought.

I'm from a stateside place where gun ownership (multiple gun ownership) is quite common. I grew up around guns. My grandad had hundreds. He collected all kinds of stuff. As little kids we'd go to grandad's house and play with the guns (as in examine them, clean them, sometimes shoot them with proper supervision-- NOT play cowboys and indians with them or point them at others). No one was ever hurt. We were taught gun safety. I enjoyed target shooting (even made some "paintings" with guns, but that's another story). Never cared for hunting but I have no problem with people who hunt for food. So, the idea of private law-abiding people owning guns has never really bothered me.

I do not have a gun here. Would I like to get one? Yeah. Not for the fun of target shooting but for self defense. And Betty, I'd like more than one. Not so that I could shoot two at the same time but to keep in different locations. And I have no moral qualms about shooting to kill a person who has invaded my home and threatened me. I would probably get a permit for concealed carry if I brought a gun here. That doesn't mean I'd walk around armed all the time but it makes transport easier and there *might* be occasions where I'd want a handgun somewhere besides my home.

In case you are wondering, I am not a Republican.

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Posted : July 22, 2007 9:32 am
Iguana
(@Iguana)
Advanced Member

Here in theUSVI not all of the US Constitution applies to us. This may surprise many who have relocated from the continental US but we are subject to the will of Congress. We are an "organized unincorporated" territory of the United States--- the operative word here is "UNINCORPORATED"- meaning not a part of the whole. Our current governing document is the "Revised Organic Act of 1954" adopted by Congress in 1954. This act gives the USVI its own bill of rights which is different but substantially similar to the Bill of Rights we all know from our mainland high school civics classes--- that is if civics was still taught in your school. Here is a link to the USVI Bill of Rights:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode48/usc_sec_48_00001561----000-.html

In this bill of rights that applies to the USVI no mention is made of the Second Ammendment to the US Constitution.- which states "A well regulated militia being necessary, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed upon." The second ammendment is not listed in the Virgin Islands Bill of Rights in the Revised Organic Act of 1954. That is why you can't just simply bring your guns down here with you when you move without permits and a lot of paperwork. It also explains why you can't just pop in to KMart and walk out with a 45 in your shopping bag.

I will leave my opinions about guns out of this post. I just want to remind everyone that even though we are US Citizens certain aspects of our relationship with the US leave us as "second class citizens". You can always complain to your "non-voting" delegate to Congress if you don't like it. Personally, I love living here in the US Virgin Islands and I accept that I am shut out of many of the aspects of our national democracy but I would like to see our people have more say in how we are governed by Mama-- maybe someday that will happen.

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Posted : July 23, 2007 3:06 pm
CarlHartmann
(@CarlHartmann)
Advanced Member

Though not a new resident, I love reading this forum -- and always learn something here! And after lurking, I hate to have my first actual post sound corrective and pedantic -- but I think it is important to note that while you are certainly correct that some protections and rights are not extended to residents of the USVI, the Second Amendment was made applicable to the US Virgin Islands, as were the 1st through the 9th, the 13th, 15th and 19th -- and part of the 14th. Notwithstanding that applicability, the Second Amendment has never been interpreted as preventing individual States or Territories from reasonably regulating aspects of sale, possession and carrying. It is the USVI's statutes, like those in many other places, that mediate such matters.

The following provisions of and amendments to the Constitution of the United States are hereby extended to the
Virgin Islands to the extent that they have not been previously extended to that territory and shall have the same
force and effect there as in the United States or in any State of the United States: article I, section 9, clauses 2
and 3; article IV, section 1 and section 2, clause 1; article VI, clause 3; the first to ninth amendments inclusive;
the thirteenth amendment; the second sentence of section 1 of the fourteenth amendment; and the fifteenth and
nineteenth amendments:

48 USCS § 1561. For an example of the application of Section 1561 to the 5th Amendment, see United States v. Pollard, 326 F.3d 397, 406 (3d Cir. 2003)

The Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution contains the same guarantee of equal
protection under law as that provided in the Fourteenth Amendment. Bolling v. Sharpe, 347 U.S. 497, 499-500,
74 S. Ct. 693 (1954). The Due Process Clause was made applicable to the Virgin Islands by the 1968
amendments to the Revised Organic Act of 1954. [n9] 48 U.S.C. § 1561. See generally United States v. Hyde, 37
F.3d 116, 123, 30 V.I. 475 (3d Cir. 1994).

[n9] The relevant parts of the amended statute read: "The following provisions of and amendments to the
Constitution of the United States are hereby extended to the Virgin Islands to the extent that they have the same
force and effect there as in the United States or in any State of the United States . . . the first to ninth amendments
inclusive . . . ." 48 U.S.C. § 1561.

The statute particularly applicable to individuals who are moving to the USVI is 23 V.I.C. § 470(b), which provides:

§ 470. Report of firearms purchased outside or brought into the Virgin Islands; fees; penalty
(a) Any person other than a licensed dealer, who purchases or otherwise obtains any firearms or ammunition from any source within or outside of the Virgin Islands shall report such fact in writing or in person to the Commissioner immediately after receipt of the firearm or ammunition, furnishing a complete description of the firearm or ammunition purchased or otherwise obtained. He shall also furnish his own name, address, date of birth and occupation.
(b) Any person upon entering the Virgin Islands bringing with him any firearm or ammunition shall report in writing or in person to the Commissioner immediately of his arrival, furnishing a complete description of the firearm or ammunition brought into the Virgin Islands. He shall also furnish his own name, address, date of birth and occupation.
(c) In the event the person reporting under subsections (a) or (b), above, is qualified for a license to carry firearms in the Virgin Islands, the Commissioner shall issue the same, upon payment of the proper fee, and the firearm shall be registered in the Weapons Register provided for in section 469 of this chapter. If the person is not qualified for a license then the Commissioner shall retain the firearms or ammunition for disposition in accordance with the provisions of section 475 of this chapter, but no prosecution shall lie against the person for unlawful possession of the firearm or ammunition.
(d) Any person who fails to comply with this section shall be punished as provided in section 484 of this chapter.

Without expressing any opinion one way or the other on guns and gun ownership, I am a huge fan of people 'owning' (or at least feeling ownership of, and reading) the USVI's laws. For additional information on who can obtain a license, what can be possessed, when it can be carried or transported, see 23 V.I.C. §§ 451-489a.

TITLE TWENTY-THREE Internal Security and Public Order
* * *
Chapter 5. Control of Firearms and Ammunition
§ 451. Definitions
§ 452. Applicability of chapter
§ 453. Persons who may lawfully carry firearms
§ 454. Persons who may be licensed to carry firearms
§ 455. Application for license; form, oath; fees
§ 456. Qualifications of applicant
§ 456a. Persons ineligible to possess or carry firearms or ammunition
§ 457. Contents of license
§ 458. Grounds for refusing to issue license
§ 459. Cancellation of license
§ 460. Reciprocal recognition of out-of-state licenses
§ 461. License to sell firearms and/or ammunition; gunsmiths; report of transactions;
private transfer sales to minors or aliens
§ 462. Application for dealer's or gunsmith's license; form and content; term; fee; renewals
§ 463. Qualifications of dealer or gunsmith
§ 464. Corporation or partnership application for license
§ 465. Conditions for dealers' operations; records of transactions
§ 466. Sales of weapons and ammunition without licenses prohibited; sales slips
§ 467. Selling firearms and ammunition without a license
§ 467a. Importation of firearms without a license
§ 468. Cancellation of license
§ 469. Report by carrier, warehouseman or depositary; delivery to consignee
§ 470. Report of firearms purchased outside or brought into the Virgin Islands; fees; penalty
§ 471. Report of loss of firearm
§ 472. Appeals
§ 473. Firearms Register
§ 474. Death of licensee
§ 475. Deposit of firearms in Department of Public Safety, disposition
§ 476. Collections of antique firearms; certificates of uselessness
§ 477. Repealed. May 16, 1974, No. 3566, § 5, Sess. L. 1974, p. 101.
§ 478. Report of treatment of wounded persons
§ 479. Discharging or aiming firearms
§ 480. False information forbidden in sale of weapons
§ 481. Alteration of identifying marks of weapons prohibited
§ 482. Illegal use of license; penalty
§ 483. Deposit of fees into General Fund
§ 484. General penalty section
§ 485. Regulations
§ 486. Police power reserved
§ 487. Seizure and forfeiture
§ 488. Limited search
§ 489. Registration of firearms upon purchase from dealer; registration of firearms transferred from non-dealer
§ 489a. Safe storage of firearms; penalties

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Posted : August 7, 2007 11:50 pm
letahl
(@letahl)
Advanced Member

Citations, people. Citations.

You should cite the source for your numerical statistics.

In the year 2003, a whopping 82% of people posting on message boards did not cite the source for their statistics, and 60% of those people were unhappy for an average of 3.2 days after posting without citations. Seven percent had pets that fell ill within the week (most of which were canaries).

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Posted : August 8, 2007 1:24 pm
MosquitoBaitt
(@MosquitoBaitt)
Advanced Member

" The fact that they break into your home in not an excuse to fire your weapon at them unless you want to see jail time yourself."

SO, YOU WOULD JUST STAND THERE AND BE A VICTIM? NOT ME, IF SOMEONE ENTERS MY HOME, WITHOUT PERMISSION, I WILL TAKE MY CHANCES IN COURT...IN MY HOUSE, I AM JUDGE AND JURY.

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Posted : August 15, 2007 1:03 am
aschultz
(@aschultz)
Advanced Member

Breaking in your house is a threat to cause you bodily harm. If you are sleeping one could kill you with your own lamp. You can use lethal force any where in the world for that crime. That is one more good reason for the right to bare arms. Criminals don't no if there is a gun in there or not. Knife fights are just barbaric lol.

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Posted : August 15, 2007 3:48 am
Betty
(@Betty)
Trusted Member

Mosquitobait, the law here says you must retreat in you house to the furthest point away from the breakin. Then if they breakin to the place where you are hiding you might be in the right to fire. If you fire you must still be able to prove they meant to do you bodily harm, like they had a knife in their hands. This is the govt of the vi, it is an insular govt. While it has many of the same rules and rights of the us, it is not the us. And there is no way in hell I would take my chances with this corrupt cesspool of a govt or want to spend a sec in a prison here.

Most breakins here are just that, a breakin to rob you. If you are not involved in the drug community there is a very small chance of volience, let alone murder. Thats whats insurance is for to cover you. I'd much rather have to submit a claim on my insurance then face a local jury for killing some thug that somewhere down the line they may be related to.

If you're going to live here think things thru and be prepared. And use island common sense not stateside.

aschultz you are just well wrong.....there are so many liberal places in the world where criminals have too many rights. There are also many states stateside where you would also get in trouble for shooting someone just because they breakin.

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Posted : August 15, 2007 11:31 am
East Ender
(@east-ender)
Expert

I have seen guys in tank tops that definitely shouldn't have the right to bare arms!! 😉

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Posted : August 15, 2007 12:09 pm
aschultz
(@aschultz)
Advanced Member

There is a big difference from braking in and walking in. If they walk in cause your door is not locked you will need to give them thirty days notice.

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Posted : August 15, 2007 5:27 pm
Lizard
(@Lizard)
Trusted Member

V.I. Code Ann., t.t. 14, S 927 (2) (B0 Section 43
to justify a homicide on the grounds of self defense. One must prove fear for life or bodily harm.

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Posted : August 20, 2007 1:33 am
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