Hovensa 4th amendme...
 
Notifications
Clear all

Hovensa 4th amendment vote

Page 1 / 3
 
Matt T
(@Matt_T)
Advanced Member

Surprised this hasn't been a hot topic on here. I for one value health and environment much more over money. If the amendment does not get ratified, I wouldn't mind one bit. Just my opinion and I have nothing more to add on this matter.

Quote
Topic starter Posted : August 7, 2013 1:58 pm
STXjill
(@stxjill)
Advanced Member

Matt, do you live on St. Croix?

Surprised this hasn't been a hot topic on here. I for one value health and environment much more over money. If the amendment does not get ratified, I wouldn't mind one bit. Just my opinion and I have nothing more to add on this matter.

ReplyQuote
Posted : August 7, 2013 2:11 pm
janeinstx
(@janeinstx)
Trusted Member

Barshinger had something better to do today. He's not there. Nelson said approving the amendment would be like taking a medicine you knew would make you impotent. Then went on to explain that impotent means he wouldn't be able to get an erection....Way to keep it classy Positive!

ReplyQuote
Posted : August 7, 2013 6:02 pm
rotorhead
(@rotorhead)
Trusted Member

Maybe they can install some zip lines and water chutes. Turn the refinery into a tourist attraction. Oh wait, Crucians don't like tourists. Tear it down and clean it up, just like the Aluminum plant. They did clean that one up, right? No? Maybe someday. Or not.

The government could always refinery-jack it and sell the parts on the black-market.

ReplyQuote
Posted : August 7, 2013 6:13 pm
vasecs
(@vasecs)
Advanced Member

Barshinger had something better to do today. He's not there. Nelson said approving the amendment would be like taking a medicine you knew would make you impotent. Then went on to explain that impotent means he wouldn't be able to get an erection....Way to keep it classy Positive!

Not signing the amendment does not affect any sale. A buyer will wipe the slate clean and start over with everyone.....so why sign? The amendment is just a PR move by the Governor to appear concerned. The Seller's will have to pay to secure sale to anyone and still be on the hook for environmental damage unless released, which in not happening. If the government decides to pursue litigation of any style will result in 10 years of legal and then Hess will still have an 11 to put the dagger in the deal. The VI has absolutely zero leverage and may have to throw in money and release of liability to help any sale. The refinery is a dinosaur and a huge cost to turn around. If Hess could not make any money operating........there is no money.

Probably the cheapest and quickest path would be for the VI to release Hovensa from all liability in exchange for ownership of refinery, then demo and sell or lease the land to new concern.

ReplyQuote
Posted : August 7, 2013 6:25 pm
pt
 pt
(@pt)
Advanced Member

yeah - think of all that copper, brass and aluminum scrap metal just sitting there!

ReplyQuote
Posted : August 7, 2013 7:28 pm
Alana33
(@alana33)
Expert

They need to move on, ratify the damned amendment and get it done instead of going to court and having the facility decay over the course of the decades that the costly litigation shall take to run its course.
Learn from past mistakes so they are not continued to be made in the future.
Hovensa still on the hook to EPA.

No-one will be able to sell or do anything with the facility if it goes to court.
Better to walk away with a little something than a lot of NOTHING! Take what you can get and.........RUN!

ReplyQuote
Posted : August 7, 2013 8:02 pm
rotorhead
(@rotorhead)
Trusted Member

Where else in the Caribbean can you zip line through an abandoned oil refinery? Or take an aerial tramway to the abandoned aluminum plant for the refreshing red mud baths. Or spend your day swimming in an abandoned oil storage tank? So many exciting things to do on St Croix. End your day with an armed robbery at one of our many fine restaurants. For real excitement we even throw in the occasional fatal shooting!

St Croix, live the dream!

ReplyQuote
Posted : August 7, 2013 8:15 pm
LiquidFluoride
(@LiquidFluoride)
Trusted Member

Where else in the Caribbean can you zip line through an abandoned oil refinery? Or take an aerial tramway to the abandoned aluminum plant for the refreshing red mud baths. Or spend your day swimming in an abandoned oil storage tank? So many exciting things to do on St Croix. End your day with an armed robbery at one of our many fine restaurants. For real excitement we even throw in the occasional fatal shooting!

St Croix, live the dream!

hilariously "positive"....

ReplyQuote
Posted : August 7, 2013 8:45 pm
rotorhead
(@rotorhead)
Trusted Member

We should also investigate the possibility of making Tequila from Tan Tan. Grind those suckers up and ferment their a$$.

Just saying.....there are a lot of things we can do besides operating a smelly ole refinery.

ReplyQuote
Posted : August 7, 2013 9:49 pm
Exit Zero
(@exit-zero)
Trusted Member Registered

The Senate did not ratify the bill regarding the 4th Amendment by a 11 - 3 vote with Barshinger absent. -- Sen. Cole, Buckley and Sanes voted yes. Sen. Nelson voted hell no.

ReplyQuote
Posted : August 8, 2013 12:50 am
Alana33
(@alana33)
Expert

What a bunch of MORONS!
Hard to believe that we are stuck with these men and women representing us. Hope that after we are left with a crumbling, completely decayed facility that no-one will want, after decades of costly litigation, over this fiasco and St. Croix's economy is completely non-existant and tanked, they will come forward and say, "Gee, we made a big mistake!" Doubt it! Another decision that will come back to haunt us like turning down Southern Energy's bid to buy WAPA. Good Luck STX. You're gonna need it!

ReplyQuote
Posted : August 8, 2013 12:16 pm
Rowdy802
(@Rowdy802)
Trusted Member

What a bunch of MORONS!
Hard to believe that we are stuck with these men and women representing us. Hope that after we are left with a crumbling, completely decayed facility that no-one will want, after decades of costly litigation, over this fiasco and St. Croix's economy is completely non-existant and tanked, they will come forward and say, "Gee, we made a big mistake!" Doubt it! Another decision that will come back to haunt us like turning down Southern Energy's bid to buy WAPA. Good Luck STX. You're gonna need it!

(tu)(tu)(tu)

ReplyQuote
Posted : August 8, 2013 12:36 pm
Yearasta
(@Yearasta)
Trusted Member

@Matt what people failed to realize is that the agreement wasnt the end all, it merely opened the door for a sales process to start. Once a buyer came to the table then they once again come before the Senate to come up with another agreement.

So too all the hypocrites that said that they were striking down the agreement claiming health concerns...why did they you pass (8 Yay 7 Absent) a late-night resolution "encouraging Hovensa to sell the plant"

Wait what happened to the health concerns...

ReplyQuote
Posted : August 8, 2013 1:47 pm
Yearasta
(@Yearasta)
Trusted Member

@rotorhead....we can also plant coconut and banana trees in the smoke stacks. Tan-tan will show up on its own we don't need to help that....then we can work on your tan-tan tequila.

The potholes around hovensa will get bigger we can fill them with water and start tilapia farms....

Yep we will be ok!

ReplyQuote
Posted : August 8, 2013 1:51 pm
sttanon
(@sttanon)
Advanced Member

I can't say that I am surprised with the outcome of the vote but it is going to be curious to see what is going to happen going forward with this.

Hansen with her comments took me back to the days of the Southern Energy hearings. Hess didn't exactly "slink off islands in the middle of the night". Sen. Capehart also made similar comments. Hovensa in the end had suffered massive losses for several years in a row. More that once in statements to the local papers Hovensa had commented that they did not know how long they could continue to operate under such losses. No company is in the business to lose money year after year.

The next real question is is there any way that some sort of a concession can be salvaged from this. George Dudley has been saying no ever since the 4th amendment was announced. I don't think that Hess wants to get tied up in litigation for years over this but we shall see. It almost seems like the vote provided a way for the senators to punish Hess for grievances due to the shutdown and other things. The result of all of this is that the Governor's hand might have just been forced and that to save face litigation might be the ONLY way to move forward.

It was brought up by Sen. Young that Hovensa can sell the refinery at anytime that they want to. That may well be but until the proposed 4th amendment was agreed upon they didn't show a lot of interest. The vote might have also killed off any potential interest that was there. It has been stated numerous times that there has been interest in people coming in to purchase the refinery, I wonder what they are thinking now.

It is going to be curious to see if Hovensa is going to continue to make any deals with the government in any sort of way moving forward. I would be leary of entering into any sort of agreements considering the hostile vibes that came out of the hearing last night.

It really did seem to be business as usual last night with all the grandstanding that happened. I again will say that I am reminded of the WAPA/Southern Energy fiasco. Same tone by the same people and look at what the results of that no vote has done to the VI. Long standing businesses have been forced to close their doors in ever-increasing numbers because they cannot afford to pay the utility bills. I think there is going to be a even larger exodus of people from STX that were waiting and hoping to see the outcome of the amendment.

So now we have the largest equipment pile in the Northern Hemisphere sitting there gathering dust. Each day that passes will make it harder and harder if it were to sell to reopen. Like many have said a refinery is not made to just sit idle like it has been. The equipment does not respond well to disuse. Where were these senators last night that supported the statements by the Gov. that " the refinery is too valuable of a piece of real estate to just be sitting idle" ?

ReplyQuote
Posted : August 8, 2013 1:58 pm
Matt T
(@Matt_T)
Advanced Member

What a bunch of MORONS!
Hard to believe that we are stuck with these men and women representing us. Hope that after we are left with a crumbling, completely decayed facility that no-one will want, after decades of costly litigation, over this fiasco and St. Croix's economy is completely non-existant and tanked, they will come forward and say, "Gee, we made a big mistake!" Doubt it! Another decision that will come back to haunt us like turning down Southern Energy's bid to buy WAPA. Good Luck STX. You're gonna need it!

Well I wasn't going to get into the debate, but I couldn't resist after seeing this quote. I don't dispute the fact that our elected leaders on the whole are quite ignorant and make very bad decisions for our islands. In this case however, I agree with their decision.

Alana, don't you live on STT? You have made everyone on this forum quite aware that your family goes back many generations in the VI, so why don't you value the natural environments of the Virgin islands and take a hard stance against the destruction of them? Did your family not instill these values or did they not consider themselves the stewards of the environment?

In my opinion, people on STT don't really understand the environmental impacts and the eyesore that this refinery is on STX. If you read the editorial in today's AVIS, there is an article talking about what types of natural environments were here before Hovensa and the Aluminum plant were constructed. I think all the Crucians who were alive before the refinery, would be disgusted at what it has done to the environment. Just fly in to St. Croix and look at the south side, from the refinery all the way to Sandy point. The destruction of that wetland habitat has made the south side very unappealing. It looks like an industrial wasteland and that's the impression tourists are left with as they fly out. Add to this a massive volume of contaminated groundwater and many of cases of cancer from residents and long time Hovensa workers.

So we want to bring this refinery atmosphere back? For what? Employment? Money? In my opinion, we should not sacrifice our quality of life to have another operating oil refinery. I don't have the answers but we need to realize we are living in a different time. There is money to be made in all kinds of new industries. Instead of continuing the 1970's mindset that we must have a refinery on St. Croix to be successful, its time to think alternatively. The refinery has been closed for over a year now and the island is still here and the people too. We can and should do better for ourselves, and more importantly the generations to come.

Rant over

ReplyQuote
Topic starter Posted : August 8, 2013 2:21 pm
Jim Dandy
(@jim_dandy)
Trusted Member

I like the comments in the paper this morning. One of our Senators thought we should try and attract an auto manufacture to take over the site.

Lots of manufactures looking to set up plants in Union Labor markets with high utility costs. Having to ship all materials by ocean would make just in time manufacturing a joke.

Same Senator though we might get the federal government to buy the facility and turn it into a military base. Guess they don't read the papers and see how the sequester is forcing military to downsize.

ReplyQuote
Posted : August 8, 2013 2:23 pm
lily1025
(@lily1025)
Advanced Member

Barshinger had something better to do today. He's not there. Nelson said approving the amendment would be like taking a medicine you knew would make you impotent. Then went on to explain that impotent means he wouldn't be able to get an erection....Way to keep it classy Positive!

positive nelson,what a "positive"role model for the youth of the island.(td)

ReplyQuote
Posted : August 8, 2013 4:12 pm
Bratt
(@Bratt)
Advanced Member

Barshinger had something better to do today. He's not there. Nelson said approving the amendment would be like taking a medicine you knew would make you impotent. Then went on to explain that impotent means he wouldn't be able to get an erection....Way to keep it classy Positive!

positive nelson,what a "positive"role model for the youth of the island.(td)

What a circus and an embarrassment to the people of the Virgin Islands Singing Donna Ross' song, I will survive , metaphors with sexual content.......in a Government setting, "representing" the the best interest of the Virgin Islands. This is the best we had to choose from to elect to represent our Islands? SMH

And, not to mention "Chucky" flailing around spitting words out of her mouth like she was possessed or something.

What a performance. Great job to the 30th Legislation, for making our territory look like uneducated, unprofessional jackasses. Well done.

ReplyQuote
Posted : August 8, 2013 5:11 pm
sttanon
(@sttanon)
Advanced Member

So we want to bring this refinery atmosphere back? For what? Employment? Money? In my opinion, we should not sacrifice our quality of life to have another operating oil refinery. I don't have the answers but we need to realize we are living in a different time. There is money to be made in all kinds of new industries. Instead of continuing the 1970's mindset that we must have a refinery on St. Croix to be successful, its time to think alternatively. The refinery has been closed for over a year now and the island is still here and the people too. We can and should do better for ourselves, and more importantly the generations to come.

Won't disagree, the refinery has been closed for a year and that people are still in St. Croix ( except for all the people that had to leave or are in the process of leaving because of losing their jobs that were Hovensa/Hovensa related/ Hovensa supported). In the year that has followed the closure there has been a very REAL impact on St. Croix. Look at how many long standing businesses have been forced to shutter their doors because the closure combined with the ever popular LEAC people are finding it harder and harder to survive and make a honest living. Living in a different time or not right now we have the one of the largest ghost towns in the Northern Hemisphere sitting idle gathering dust, with each day making it harder and harder to reopen if it were to sell.

Hovensa is still liable for the environmental issues even if the refinery were to sell and I am sure that the buyers would be under the same watchful eye of the EPA. Like it or not a refinery is pretty much a single purpose operation. To do something else with the spot would require a massive undertaking of tens of years and hundreds of millions of dollars. Think about how long has it been since the aluminum plant shut down, the same spot where NOTHING has gone into.

A responsible owner could take steps to ensure that the environment does not suffer from the operation of a refinery. One of the groups that has ( maybe after yesterday had might be a better word ) looking to purchase Hovensa was looking to do a conversion to LNG. LNG as a power source for the refinery, rather than the Heavy Crude that they were using, would drastically cut down on the air pollutants that the plant would release. In addition it sounds like that whoever would want to go in would probably make a dramatic switch from heavy crude production to light crude which produces greater quantities of the more desirable end products with less waste.

Economically it makes little to no sense to take a facility like Hovensa and tear it down and start from scratch as something new. A sale of the facility, with the right guidelines put in place to protect the residents, could help not only St Croix but the islands as a whole recover from the mess we find ourselves in.

I will say it again, the tone last night set by many of the senators was less about what was in the best interests for the Virgin Islands and more about exacting a pound of flesh from Hovensa. This is just like the Southern Energy debacle from years ago and we all know where that got us, LEAC and $.50 +/KWH electricity.

I would also say this.... The VI DOES NEED to diversify the economic base and attracting new industry is essential to that growth, that is something that everyone can agree on. Look at it from a industry prospective though. The infrastructure here is not what it is in other places which makes it hard for many industries to consider the VI as a viable location to do business/build a business. The EDC program for the most part seems to attract businesses that are money oriented ( investment banking etc ). These businesses to contribute to the local economy but not to the degree that Hovensa did for 45 years. The government seems to be hostile to a degree for businesses of a decent moral character, but has no problems in one sided deals with businesses whos owners are wanted by the FBI ( Frederiksted stadium project as one many examples).

The senators made their bed very publically last night, time will tell if they and the people of the VI can be able to sleep in it.......

ReplyQuote
Posted : August 8, 2013 5:32 pm
Alana33
(@alana33)
Expert

@MattT

I did not say anything about bringing a refinery back! I just said that our senators are Morons to continue to beat a dead horse regarding not ratifying the amendment so that at least something could be gained and we could move forward. The refinery could be sold to become something more environmentally friendly that would not take a toxic toll on STX and surrounding islands. Why does it have to be a refinery? I am saying that now it may go to court for decades, costing the VI taxpayers more money (what else is new) and take years to resolve while the facility decays! Why not invite manufacturers of solar systems, wind and thermal energy and other green technologies to enhance our islands instead of destroying them.

I, along with many others, fought against the Alpine WTE farce they planned for STX due to the research available on the amount of toxins they would release into the land, air and water for the infinitesimal amount of electricity it would provide at the overall ridiculous high costs (to the taxpayer) of doing so.

I do take a hard stance on environmental concerns and attended the NOAA conference held at UVI/STT not too long ago, along with many others, testifying as to how our lands, waters, reefs, corals and fish populations have changed since I was a child and in these waters almost every day for most of my life. The changes are not for the better and these are issues people need to confront and deal with if they have any concern for where they live, whether it be STT, STX, STJ and our outlying islands. What happens on one affects us all.

Yes, I live it STT and have seen the refinery site. However, seems to me, powers that be and the residents choose to be the industrial hub of the USVI. Not saying it's right or wrong but be careful what you wish for as you may get it, in spades. Especially, if you have our Senators making those decisions for you with a goal in mind of lining their pockets not the overall health and wellbeing of our people and our islands.!

ReplyQuote
Posted : August 8, 2013 8:39 pm
vasecs
(@vasecs)
Advanced Member

My belief is that the only way to stop the insanity is for the territory to go completely broke and that might already be here with unfunded obligations past and future. I would encourage the Fed's to not send any money here and zero bailout. If the territory is forced into a chapter 9 like Detroit, an off island trustee can take control of WAPA. The trustee can appoint off island management to take control of all government services and force cutbacks and reductions. Cancel labor union contracts, strengthen financials by cleaning up the balance sheets. Sell WAPA without interference, force Hovensa to answer to Federal Judge.

I believe the ONLY way the VI survives is to hit bottom.......no money, no options! Have a Bankruptcy Trustee and Judge clean up the garbage at least on STX. The government, WAPA and everyone on the payroll for the VI government services will take, take, take until there is nothing left and then want more!!! It is the addiction of dependency and this island is still mainlining.

Can you imagine what secrets and scary deals a independent off island uninhibited heavy hand versed in reorganizing would uncover?? A bankruptcy trustee only answers to the Judge! No one here on island

Uninhibited to tell Chucky to shut up and sit down......

ReplyQuote
Posted : August 8, 2013 9:52 pm
Alana33
(@alana33)
Expert

@vasecs:

From your lips to God's (and/or Fed's) ear!;)

ReplyQuote
Posted : August 9, 2013 12:15 am
LiquidFluoride
(@LiquidFluoride)
Trusted Member

I believe the ONLY way the VI survives is to hit bottom.......no money, no options! .

Just like an alcoholic....

hard to argue that point... but you have to realize this:

It's not just the government, it's the majority of the population also.

ReplyQuote
Posted : August 9, 2013 12:23 am
Page 1 / 3
Close Menu