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Hovensa 4th amendment vote

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Exit Zero
(@exit-zero)
Trusted Member Registered

I would encourage the Fed's to not send any money here and zero bailout. If the territory is forced into a chapter 9 like Detroit, . The trustee can appoint off island management to take control of all government services and force cutbacks and reductions. Cancel labor union contracts, strengthen financials by cleaning up the balance sheets. Sell WAPA without interference, force Hovensa to answer to Federal Judge.

I Have a Bankruptcy Trustee and Judge clean up the garbage at least on STX. The government, WAPA and everyone on the payroll for the VI government services will take, take, take until there is nothing left and then want more!!! Can you imagine what secrets and scary deals a independent off island uninhibited heavy hand versed in reorganizing would uncover?? A bankruptcy trustee only answers to the Judge! No one here on island

......

That is a very naive and uninformed conjectural solution. Read the Revised Organic Act of 1954 - it will take an act of the US Congress to revise, overrule or dismantle the sovereignty of the USVI Government.. Bankruptcy is administered by the USVI District Court not off island.

Direct from www.uscourts.gov:
The United States district courts are the trial courts of the federal court system. Within limits set by Congress and the Constitution, the district courts have jurisdiction to hear nearly all categories of federal cases, including both civil and criminal matters. Every day hundreds of people across the nation are selected for jury duty and help decide some of these cases.

There are 94 federal judicial districts, including at least one district in each state, the District of Columbia and Puerto Rico. Three territories of the United States -- the Virgin Islands, Guam, and the Northern Mariana Islands -- have district courts that hear federal cases, including bankruptcy cases. (Printable Circuit/District map (pdf))

Bankruptcy courts are separate units of the district courts. Federal courts have exclusive jurisdiction over bankruptcy cases. This means that a bankruptcy case cannot be filed in a state court.

There are two special trial courts that have nationwide jurisdiction over certain types of cases.

1. The Court of International Trade addresses cases involving international trade and customs issues.

2. The United States Court of Federal Claims has jurisdiction over most claims for money damages against the United States, disputes over federal contracts, unlawful "takings" of private property by the federal government, and a variety of other claims against the United States.

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Posted : August 9, 2013 1:34 am
Novanut
(@novanut)
Trusted Member

Sorry. Sometimes I just can't help myself.

I propose leasing the facility to Chucky. That way she could win the Guiness book of records' "World's Largest Fish Fry" reelection campaign. Imagine. Chucky parachuting in with a fish in each hand. Slapping them on the grill as she lands with promises to "my people, dem" that life will be better and there will be a mango in every pot. And as those historic words leave her mouth, as large as it is, fireworks burst forth from the, presently silent stacks. I get goosebumps just thinking about it. But wait. What if there were a guest appearance by PN ("Positive Nelson", not to be confused with "Pitiful Nutcase")? He could serenade the "sheeple" with song while diddling with his dredlocks. The crowds would go wild, once they had enough fish of course.

But seriously, and I use that term loosely. Those in the upper '49' who have any money left after paying for Obamacare would most likely find our little piece of paradise a pleasant diversion from the rat race. So why not take a page from the playbook of STT and encourage them to come and 'set a spell'. Of course, that would mean firing the Chuckies of the government first, placing the newbies on a part time basis and, most importantly, requiring a background check and drug test. "Do you have a GED?" "What songs can you sing?"

IMHO, This beautiful rock is paradise, politics excluded. Why not promote that and prostitute it as does STT? Seems like a no-brainer to me. But, then again, I don't think I'll be able to find anybody who will attest that I have two neurons to rub together...

I like this 'open' forum for discussion of diverse thoughts. Don't you?

Now where did I hide those colored easter eggs last year???

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Posted : August 9, 2013 2:51 am
vicanuck
(@vicanuck)
Expert

As a business owner, all my hope is gone for an economic recovery on St. Croix.

I was very concerned before, but now I'm really fearful of the future here.

I'm not sure how much economic decline more I can take.

No wonder so many are poor here.

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Posted : August 9, 2013 12:27 pm
beachy
(@beachy)
Trusted Member

Sad and scary. We've seen the stx economy through several ups and downs, but think the only time that will rival the next few years is the period after Fountain Valley, which was actually when we became involved with STX, and then it took more than 10 years before stx began to show any economic growth or prosperity...I can't imagine how bad things are going to get now with no hope in sight. We've never really seen 'good' for an extended time, and when good times have come, it has basically been due to outside sources/events/trends and not the actions of the VI itself, but even when the territory prospered, the government and 'the people' were so shortsighted about planning for the future. We're not going to bail out now, partly because we can survive and partly because we think/hope things will eventually turn around, and we think we can wait it out, but know lots of folks are not in the same position we are in, and they are going to have to make some tough decisions in coming months and likely years.

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Posted : August 9, 2013 1:15 pm
Matt T
(@Matt_T)
Advanced Member

Sorry. Sometimes I just can't help myself.

I propose leasing the facility to Chucky. That way she could win the Guiness book of records' "World's Largest Fish Fry" reelection campaign. Imagine. Chucky parachuting in with a fish in each hand. Slapping them on the grill as she lands with promises to "my people, dem" that life will be better and there will be a mango in every pot. And as those historic words leave her mouth, as large as it is, fireworks burst forth from the, presently silent stacks. I get goosebumps just thinking about it. But wait. What if there were a guest appearance by PN ("Positive Nelson", not to be confused with "Pitiful Nutcase")? He could serenade the "sheeple" with song while diddling with his dredlocks. The crowds would go wild, once they had enough fish of course.

But seriously, and I use that term loosely. Those in the upper '49' who have any money left after paying for Obamacare would most likely find our little piece of paradise a pleasant diversion from the rat race. So why not take a page from the playbook of STT and encourage them to come and 'set a spell'. Of course, that would mean firing the Chuckies of the government first, placing the newbies on a part time basis and, most importantly, requiring a background check and drug test. "Do you have a GED?" "What songs can you sing?"

IMHO, This beautiful rock is paradise, politics excluded. Why not promote that and prostitute it as does STT? Seems like a no-brainer to me. But, then again, I don't think I'll be able to find anybody who will attest that I have two neurons to rub together...

I like this 'open' forum for discussion of diverse thoughts. Don't you?

Now where did I hide those colored easter eggs last year???

Downright hilarious! Novanut for Governor!

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Topic starter Posted : August 9, 2013 1:26 pm
Rowdy802
(@Rowdy802)
Trusted Member

I will not give much of an opinion except to say that I do support the petrochemical industry the same way I support the progress in alternate power industries, I practice recycling, I drive and own cars only, and find SUVs and trucks absolutely unnecessary for most people... I work, mostly in the petrochemical business so I may sound biased... My job, in a nutshell, is to keep the place reliable and to make sure it doesn't hurt the ambient and any living thing... I am proud to be an API Inspector and I love my home, planet earth, the only one we all have... Ok, enough of my BS...

IMHO, the vote from the senate was made based on passion, frustration, and anger... After all, when Hovensa announced its closure, it was the senate that grilled Hovensa's management, threatened the corporation, and insisted they couldn't shut down the place... I would have tried to keep all options open for the site and now they totally torpedoed the relationship with Hess Oil... I am well aware that Hovensa, as any private enterprise, will look after what is best for them, hence it would make most people ignore whatever good they offered... The corporations reaction to the VI government attack was to simply behave like a brat and not give way on anything... This agreement had shown me they were at least opening up a bit to dialogue and they had taken down the "chip on their shoulder"...

The present is now more uncertain than ever... I was lucky to decide not to start a business in STX 4 years ago... I made the right decision after evaluating all the facts regarding WAPA, the government and, specially, their lack of vision in redirecting STX's position more as a tourist destination...

This is not the best example of what may lie ahead with this site but it is a real possibility:

http://www.epa.gov/Region2/waste/fscorco.htm

Closed in 1982 and the land is still an f'ing mess... A site less than half the size of Hovensa... Lawsuits are ongoing left and right...

Or, just take a look at the Vialco site... or the landfill right next to the airport that greets you with its fragrance...

I hope, sincerely, someone comes up with a plan and quickly... I decided to put a complete stop to my plans to buy a property in the VIs... I will sit down and wait, not shutdown the plans entirely as I want the islands to come out on top...In the meantime, If the place is paradise then I don't want to see hell...

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Posted : August 9, 2013 2:09 pm
LiquidFluoride
(@LiquidFluoride)
Trusted Member

IMHO, This beautiful rock is paradise, politics excluded. Why not promote that and prostitute it as does STT?

That’s what I plan on doing... on a different scale.. Good call!

many of the long term residents here on STX seem to think there is a possibility of manufacturing on this island, I think it's not economically feasible.

Without manufacturing you have little choice, Resource exploitation is the only feasible option & the beaches / weather are a resource.

I plan on opening a business with my wife in the next year or so, Wapa will have little to nothing to do with it, but tourism will; I don't see any other options at this point for this island (regardless of the dislike of the tourism industry from some residents).

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Posted : August 9, 2013 2:36 pm
Iris Tramm
(@Iris_Tramm)
Trusted Member

I visited for a few days last week, after a forced absence due to job loss tangentally related to the HOVENSA closure. It was nice to see certain things I've grown to love over the last decade (and it was great to FINALLY drive the C'sted bypass), but it felt different. I've become quite fond and protective of STX, but I don't know how to help it anymore. Maybe it is like an alcoholic who has to hit bottom before it gets better. My whole visit was very sad. I feel sad for STX. I think it will be a very hard place to live for some time now. People here in the States -- educated, well-traveled, widely-read people -- they've no clue at all. If the Feds takeover somehow, and the gravy train ends for EVERYBODY ... *shudder*. The midwest is dotted with industry towns gone dusty after the auto plants closed. I guess although I miss STX every day, I'm glad I'm not there now because it looks more and more like Detroit every day.

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Posted : August 9, 2013 8:37 pm
STXjill
(@stxjill)
Advanced Member

I'm sad to see how Craig Barshinger handled this ... going on vacation to the San Juan Islands because he'd made reservations and paid months ago, instead of being here to vote, regardless of how he voted. Shame on him, however, to take it further, he's definitely out of touch with life on St. Croix. If you have access to his Facebook page, it's amazing to read his posts and comments. I tried to copy and paste part of his comments:

Senator Craig Barshinger, why were you absent at last night's vote on the Hovensa ammendment? In a radio interview, you told Lee Carle that you would be voting "No". Yet, you were absent. Why?
The people of the US Virgin Islands deserve an answer.

You and 18 others like this..

Isborne Fredericks: Craig played it safe!!

Craig Barshinger: Terrence: I'm in the San Juan Islands on a camping/biking trip that was booked & paid for months ago. I worked very hard to promote a No vote in advance, and had a reservation to fly back to VI from Seattle on Tues. to make Wed. Session, which I did not use. I did have some fear that at the last minute the vote would swing the other direction, but fortunately good sense prevailed.

Shellie Tobias: Camping/biking trip versus Hovensa amendment. fortunately good sense prevailed. REALLY? So if had gone the other way or your vote would have made the difference - what then?. Oh I forgot you say you did have a fear it would go the other way but decided to stay with the camping/biking trip. So how was the camping/biking trip?

Craig Barshinger: The trip is great. On ferry now from Lopez Island to San Juan Island. Here til Sunday. Shellie, if the vote had gone the other way, I would have felt terrible. On Saturday when I departed, it seemed clear that there were not 8 Yes votes, and that is what would have been needed to ratify.

Patrick Deery: it's always some excuse about pre-booking or some other excuse why you are derelict from your senatorial responsibilities. You always throw in some lame comment about something to justify yourself. Why did the people of the VI even elect you? You are not contributing, you are just taking. You tout yourself as the environment protector, but when it's crunch time, Craig is off camping on the other side of the US. This is completely unacceptable. Sometimes, Mr. Barsinger, you should put aside your personal wants, delay, re-schedule, even cancel. The people of the Virgin Islands should be totally outraged at your complete unreliability and intense selfishness as regards your disappearing just before the vote. And as sickenly funny as it is (not), you said you would be voting - just a few days ago. Is that a bold lie, since you apparently had booked your vacation "months ago"? You should be ashamed. May it rain and storm on you every day you are playing in the San Juan Islands. Was your comment about being near a port in Seattle, something we should cheer about?? Is that you justification for your extremely poor decision to not fight - AGAIN - for the People of the Virgin Islands??

Trabert Graneau: Senator Bashinger, the fact that you were not in the chambers to vote on that bill makes it look like you didn't have the courage to stand by your convictions. You need to be careful this doesn't come back to haunt you in the next election.

Shellie Tobias: So you are saying you were not needed? I hate precog politics. A precog (short for precognitive) is an individual who possesses precognition as a form of extra-sensory perception. It allows them to perceive information about future places or events before they happen. In the United States, precogs are highly regarded. Precogs are also known as psychics, seers, oracles, and harbingers. In the Caribbean we call them Obeah man. Enjoy the rest of your trip.

Glen J Smith: i am not purchasing your lame excuse senator ! you just lost my vote should you seek to run for office again !

Terence A. Thomas: Senator, you should be ashamed of yourself to even respond the way you did. For real?! I can't believe your hubris. Is this what we pay you for? Seriously?!

Everett A. Ryan Lawd T! Look how you gawn get de seneta in troble. But yo rite!

Shellie Tobias On August 4 you posted on your fb page the following with a pic of the port, " I'm in Seattle, near a transship ping port. This is a good business activity for St. Croix's south shore. Oil refining has benefits, but there are other business activities that are profitable and cleaner." Then today you said you are on a camping/hiking trip..is this a business, personal or combination trip.

Cheryl Chyinski Dolloff Makes you wonder who is paying for this trip....

Larry Sewer When will you all ever learn? You believe in spinning wheels. I am looking though smiling. Wish you well.
Clotilda Matos Millin Yeah the question is who's paying for this trip. This scenario sounds
a lot like déja vu to me. Shame shame!!!

Gail Gonzales-Ferreira When will we learn that we can no longer afford to make excuse for, or entertain public service "leaders" who continue to put their PERSONAL interests above the best interests of the territory, it's residents, and future? No excuses or 1/2 stepping allowed Mr. Barshinger.

Julien Adams T, it looks like the good senator walked right into a bee hive. Might be the last time he pops his head out on social media. Good for you all for calling him out; people like him need to be held accountable.

Marissa McFarlane Hi cuz today is my B-day

Jill Fisher We deserve better!

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Posted : August 9, 2013 11:04 pm
Alana33
(@alana33)
Expert

Not that I am a Barshinger fan (in fact I did not vote for him last election) but since he is continuously over-rided, why not go?
It would not have made any difference but I can see why people are pissed off!

Be more pissed off at the ones that were here that are actual intellectual and ethical MORONS. Barshinger is not the brightest bulb in the room but he frequently displays some luminosity.

Quite frankly, all of our islands need different, intelligent and effectual leadership. I believe that term limits need to be in order.
Barshinger is ineffectual. He is the " white cheese in the room full of black rats at the bottom of the totem pole."
(I fully expect dissing on this)

It would be nice to get actual responses back from him and all other Senators, when contacted rather than the auto responses they all seem to do not matter what you send or information or help one would like! So disappointed in all of them. It makes me embarrassed to be a Virgin Islander. It is completely dismaying that all these egotisical, inept MORONS have just begun their terms. God help us!

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Posted : August 10, 2013 12:06 am
Cruz
 Cruz
(@Cruz)
Advanced Member

@STXjill.....next time please take a screen shot of Barshinger's reply so we can have it saved for next election. This man needs to be placed on permanent vacation from the legislature.

If anyone on the island of St. John is reading this, please encourage a decent candidate to run against this man and get him out of office.

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Posted : August 10, 2013 10:31 pm
Rowdy802
(@Rowdy802)
Trusted Member
Alana33
(@alana33)
Expert

As Frank Schneiger said, "better half a loaf than none at all," except when dealing with a legislature more willing to inflate their egos and show their power while accomplishing a death knell for STX and the rest of the VI. Every single senator that voted against this amendment should be forced to pack their bags and go home. They are not doing their jobs in protecting the best interest of the people of the VI.
It is "business as usual" run by the incompetent leading the inept. We are doomed with this type of "leadership."

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Posted : August 13, 2013 2:35 pm
Cruz
 Cruz
(@Cruz)
Advanced Member

As Frank Schneiger said, "better half a loaf than none at all," except when dealing with a legislature more willing to inflate their egos and show their power while accomplishing a death knell for STX and the rest of the VI. Every single senator that voted against this amendment should be forced to pack their bags and go home. They are not doing their jobs in protecting the best interest of the people of the VI.
It is "business as usual" run by the incompetent leading the inept. We are doomed with this type of "leadership."

For the first time in a long time they actually did the right thing in the best interest of St. Croix. That 4th amendment was not in the best interest of STX. Hovensa and the Govt needs to come up with a better deal and address the many concerns that were brought up during the hearings. This is how govt is suppose to work with CHECKS and BALANCES, not just rubber stamping whatever is giving to us. The senators have learned from the Diageo deal.

I'll say this in our Crucian lingo. They need to "WHEEL AND COME AGAIN". And when they come, come good.

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Posted : August 13, 2013 11:58 pm
Alana33
(@alana33)
Expert

Is it really in the best interest of STX to have decades of litigation while the refinery rots and remains unusable and unsellable.?
Here's an interesting new development: http://stthomassource.com/content/news/local-news/2013/08/14/hovensa-warns-it-might-close-fuel-rack

and another: http://virginislandsdailynews.com/news/virgin-islands-economy-rapidly-shrinking-1.1535378

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Posted : August 14, 2013 11:50 am
vicanuck
(@vicanuck)
Expert

Well...I hope the senators are all happy now. Hovensa doesn't have to negotiate with anyone and will be quite happy to watch the refinery rot as it provides years of juicy tax write-offs. The senators gave them exactly what they wanted and on a silver platter.

In the meanwhile, St. Croix will rot along with the refinery as the population continues to sink into poverty and despair.

And what message has the senate's action sent to prospective industries and businesses?

Don't come to St. Can't...the big island where business isn't welcome.

Take your money and jobs elsewhere...and who could blame them when they do?

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Posted : August 14, 2013 12:20 pm
Yearasta
(@Yearasta)
Trusted Member

The Fantastic 11 tried to hang with the Big Boys.....

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Posted : August 14, 2013 12:33 pm
Rowdy802
(@Rowdy802)
Trusted Member

For the first time in a long time they actually did the right thing in the best interest of St. Croix. That 4th amendment was not in the best interest of STX. Hovensa and the Govt needs to come up with a better deal and address the many concerns that were brought up during the hearings. This is how govt is suppose to work with CHECKS and BALANCES, not just rubber stamping whatever is giving to us. The senators have learned from the Diageo deal.

I'll say this in our Crucian lingo. They need to "WHEEL AND COME AGAIN". And when they come, come good.

I humbly beg to differ with you... With all due respect, in a situation like this one and given the financial situation with Hess Oil, you can't be looking only for YOUR best interest, you have to go with what is in the best interest of both the VI and Hess... You have to compromise and both sides lose... The governor realized that and figured that a so-so agreement was better than NO agreement... You only pick the battles you can win!...

I invite you to read this article which I had posted before... It is related to the shuttered refinery site in Puerto Rico that was known as CORCO... It happened in 1982... To this day, the land is still a filthy mess.. Something similar may now be in the future of the VIs...

http://www.epa.gov/Region2/waste/fscorco.htm

I want to see "Positive" Nelson sing now...

P.S. I am not defending Hess... They should have tried and sell the refinery when it was STILL in service... But, they decided to "ride the wave" with the unstable economy with the hope that it was going to get better... Once you shut it down, the value begins to come down in a hurry... I guess that definitely, "Stupid is as stupid does"...

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Posted : August 14, 2013 1:03 pm
Yearasta
(@Yearasta)
Trusted Member

So funny how the "caves" keep saying "we're giving up too much" or as stated in this thread "in our Crucian lingo. They need to "WHEEL AND COME AGAIN"....

I wonder how many of them actually read the agreement, not just this one but the 1st,2nd,and 3rd......what were we giving up, that was too much?

Had the agreement been passed...7 Million was going to be paid....7 Million would be deferred (deferrred!! It was not being given away) then by the end of this month the refinery would have been listed for sale with Goldman Sachs....the same Goldman Sachs that has already helped them sell 19 oil terminals on the east coast, the terminal in St. Lucia and the have shut down their Port Reading refinery....I personally know of 4 companies that WAS interested in buying...upon the sale we would have gotten 20% of the sale capped at 50 Million....

I hope they are happy that they are getting their 14 million now...makes sense

We werent happy with the agreement either but it was the best thing at the time....that's how divorces work...neither side is ever happy...

This plant could have been sold within the next few months....

I guess dem man wheeled and came again....hard meh'son

As the executive branch is getting ready to send down another multi-million dollar appropriation for money WE DONT HAVE to go towards litigation....

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Posted : August 14, 2013 1:05 pm
Rowdy802
(@Rowdy802)
Trusted Member

10-4 Yearasta... a BIG thumbs up...

And now STX will have plenty of wasted land to go with the VIALCO "red mud"...

I hope that 3 minutes to midnight someone is able to stop this and come up with a new compromise... The VI's economy needs a restart, not more land mines on the path...

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Posted : August 14, 2013 1:24 pm
Yearasta
(@Yearasta)
Trusted Member

Today is the deadline rowdy...it would require a special emergency session where they change their vote...which would mean admitting they were wrong...I dont see that happening. Plus quite a bit of them are in Atlanta for a conference so I dont even know if they have a quorum here.

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Posted : August 14, 2013 1:28 pm
Ronnie
(@ronnie)
Trusted Member

Barshinger's answer came after on his FB page.

Craig Barshinger I'm back in communication range. I see much criticism and several questions. First, the trip was personal, I took pictures of trans shipping ports and ferries because it applied to our VI needs. Next, I wanted to be at the Session and should have been at Session. Despite having scheduled the trip months ago, I arranged to fly back for the Session. Unfortunately I was unable to make the Tuesday morning flight to the VI. I didn't realize how difficult and irregular travel was in that region. I am truly sorry to have frustrated many of my constituents by my absence.

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Posted : August 14, 2013 2:06 pm
Iris Tramm
(@Iris_Tramm)
Trusted Member

Don't come to St. Can't...the big island where business isn't welcome.

Ha. It's "St. Can't" now? hat's funny. I have an old friend who'd crack up at that. We always called it "St. Crime".

ETA: STXfoodie, I miss you.

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Posted : August 14, 2013 2:27 pm
Alana33
(@alana33)
Expert
islandjoan
(@islandjoan)
Trusted Member

It truly is beyond disgusting. There has got to be some criminal activity going on behind the scenes here. There's talk on cruciansinfocus about DeJongh's lawyer profiting from this.

I can't even think about this crap anymore it just makes me feel like my head is going to explode. The entire government here is such a freaking waste.

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Posted : August 16, 2013 3:55 pm
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