racism on the islan...
 
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racism on the islands

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OldTart
(@the-oldtart)
Expert

Wikipedia's not a bad place to start when researching something but shouldn't be taken as the definitive. Digging a little further always turns up something more. Seems that the term, "cracker" was coined a very long time before it was first used in America and where it's meaning has changed over time:

http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/07/01/197644761/word-watch-on-crackers

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Posted : December 9, 2015 11:57 am
speee1dy
(@speee1dy)
Expert

you are correct, but does negate the fact that some find it as offensive as a certain other word

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Posted : December 9, 2015 1:19 pm
speee1dy
(@speee1dy)
Expert

Gators mom, the term has many different meanings. and the way black people have used it to my son was racist and derogatory

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Posted : December 9, 2015 1:26 pm
speee1dy
(@speee1dy)
Expert

and ot was right-this should really be moved to the coconut forum

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Posted : December 9, 2015 1:27 pm
OldTart
(@the-oldtart)
Expert

you are correct, but does negate the fact that some find it as offensive as a certain other word

As I meant to infer when I said that it's meaning has changed over time. The "n" word (if that's the word you mean when mentioning the "certain other word") was readily accepted and considered the norm - and not derogatory - by people of color less than 100 years ago before it was labeled as an unspeakable slur. One of the Delaney sisters said in their wonderful autobiography ("Having Our Say") about growing up in the post-reconstruction South that they simply don't understand all the fuss about it!

PS: Smiley faces unintended - pop up for some reason when I type the closing bracket ...

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Posted : December 9, 2015 1:32 pm
speee1dy
(@speee1dy)
Expert

true

so that was a good book? they were just so adorable

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Posted : December 9, 2015 2:56 pm
OldTart
(@the-oldtart)
Expert

Wonderful book.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Having_Our_Say:_The_Delany_Sisters%27_First_100_Years

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Posted : December 9, 2015 3:16 pm
speee1dy
(@speee1dy)
Expert

they sound so fascinating

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Posted : December 9, 2015 4:24 pm
monogram
(@monogram)
Advanced Member

Whites can't really claim racism here when they own virtually all of the most valuable companies, real estate, etc. (Seaborne, Coral World, Tramway, Innovative, Sunny Isle, Tutu Park, Yacht Haven, Kmart, Ritz Carlton, Frenchman's Reef, Bluebeards, Duffy's, Greenhouse, Brew Pub, etc. ad infinitum). Not to mention the lion's share o fhte multimillion dollar EDC companies. That's just not typical in genuinely oppressive societies.

America pre-1960s was racist. South Africa during apartheid was racist. Implying that the VI is "racist" is so laughable that it must be interpreted as either some type of joke or a fantasy derived from the delusions of the privileged.

Maybe I've spent too much time studying economics (my analyses of other issues are often through an economics lens), but the allegations simply make no sense.

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Posted : December 9, 2015 5:17 pm
speee1dy
(@speee1dy)
Expert

obviously you will never be able to see the racism that happens to white people-because you are not white.

you can never know what someone else goes through

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Posted : December 9, 2015 5:25 pm
rotorhead
(@rotorhead)
Trusted Member

I know that it is probably racist of me to point this out but not a single definition for racism that I have found requires that you own things in order to be racist.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racism

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/racism

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/racism

http://www.yourdictionary.com/racism

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Posted : December 9, 2015 6:11 pm
OldTart
(@the-oldtart)
Expert

In keeping with the original question, I’m reminded of something that happened many years ago when I was arrested after a traffic accident which was absolutely not my fault. The list of charges was long and embellished to the max but after many long months of refusing to take a plea they were all dropped.

One of the charges was that I had called the arresting officer a “black a-hole”. When I read that, I was absolutely indignant if not furious. Yes, unfortunately I was daft enough to call him an a-hole because he was one but I did NOT call him a black one. The (black) attorney representing me couldn’t help but laugh at my obvious indignation.

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Posted : December 9, 2015 6:38 pm
Spartygrad95
(@Spartygrad95)
Trusted Member

I think monogram is using the definition of institutional racism.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism

Don't worry though. The Supreme Court ruled racism (institutional) is OVER when they struck down section 4 of the Voting a Rights Act. I'm sure that is a huge relief to the 12% of the United States who are black and have less than 2% of the wealth. Thank Jeebus for SCOTUS.

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Posted : December 9, 2015 6:44 pm
monogram
(@monogram)
Advanced Member

*Be part of the 8% of the population that owns 99% of the VI's private wealth*

*complain about how racist society is against members of that group*

"The race card really is a cheap tool to use." --Ronald Reagan. We should all listen to the iconic Ronald Reagan!

Who said I'm not white? Just because I'm from here doesn't mean I'm not white.

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Posted : December 9, 2015 6:48 pm
speee1dy
(@speee1dy)
Expert

i read each definition and did not see that either.

but coming from monogram , who sees racism in everything ........

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Posted : December 9, 2015 6:51 pm
monogram
(@monogram)
Advanced Member

I'm sure that is a huge relief to the 12% of the United States who are black and have less than 2% of the wealth. Thank Jeebus for SCOTUS.

Ha!

Racism typically requires certain indicia, such as being underrepresented in the traditional professions, owning a disproportionately low amount of private wealth, overrepresentation in the prisons, etc.

Are VI jails disproportionately filled with whites? Quite the opposite. Are VI whites underrepresented in the professions (doctors, lawyers, etc)? Certainly not. Are VI whites relegated to living in the worst neighborhoods? LOL! Are whites under or over-represented in yacht clubs/boat ownership? If a white VI resident wanted to rent an apartment in the nicest areas of the VI, would their race count against them?

Laughable indeed! If this is "racist," I need a double-dose of some of that racism! Racially-tinged jokes or slights =/= racism.

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Posted : December 9, 2015 7:03 pm
Gumbo
(@Gumbo)
Advanced Member

I really liked the term "prejudice ". As a child and young adult it was easy for my parents to teach and easy for my brother and I to understand. Prejudice = Pre judgment.
Meaning you have judged someone based on something that doesn't matter before you even know who they are.
The term Racism is difficult to understand because it means so many different things to different people.
I really don't remember the term "racism"
being used widely until around the 90's.
At least not around the deep south.

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Posted : December 9, 2015 7:25 pm
islandjoan
(@islandjoan)
Trusted Member

Monogram, you make some thoughtful and valid points.

However I disagree that whites have all the power in the VI.

Sunny Isle - the De Chaberts owned it, and the land that Hess bought:
De Chabert and his family opened the Sunny Isle Shopping Center on St. Croix in 1970. At that point, the shopping center was the first of its kind in the Eastern Caribbean.
The Hovensa refinery, formerly the Hess Oil Virgin Islands Corp. refinery, is built on land sold to Leon Hess by the De Chabert family in the 1960s. The refinery, the largest employer in the territory, created a well-paid workforce on the island, which helped the nearby shopping center prosper.
That prosperity, noted Gov. Charles Turnbull, has allowed the De Chabert family to support various community groups over the years.

from Mario de Chabert

Here is a profile of Ansetta de Chabert: Ansetta de Chabert

I'm sure if you researched the history of the other prominent real estate holdings, you would find the VI govt selling them to the present owners, most of who are probably white but not all, as shown above. (I don't have the time to research all the places you listed)

Also, who owns/controls the hospital? WAPA? The airport and ports? The Consumer and Licensing Board? The election system? Not whites...

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Posted : December 9, 2015 7:26 pm
islandjoan
(@islandjoan)
Trusted Member

ps
the Economic Development Commission DECIDES who to give those benefits to.

Who makes up the EDC? Blacks.

VIEDA Management

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Posted : December 9, 2015 7:30 pm
rotorhead
(@rotorhead)
Trusted Member

Ha!

Racism typically requires certain indicia, such as being underrepresented in the traditional professions, owning a disproportionately low amount of private wealth, overrepresentation in the prisons, etc.

It must be nice to take a word from the dictionary which has negative connotations and redefine it so that in only applies to the people that you want it to apply to.

Are VI jails disproportionately filled with whites? Quite the opposite. Are VI whites underrepresented in the professions (doctors, lawyers, etc)? Certainly not. Are VI whites relegated to living in the worst neighborhoods? LOL! Are whites under or over-represented in yacht clubs/boat ownership? If a white VI resident wanted to rent an apartment in the nicest areas of the VI, would their race count against them?

Let's see, Black Governor. Black Lieutenant Governor. Black Senate. Black Commissioners. Black police chief, etc, etc. If things are so bad for black people in the VI then why doesn't our black government do something about it? The Yacht club has black members, why don't more join? Why don't more blacks own boats?

And as for economics and neighborhoods. My doctor for 15 years was black and lived right down the street from me before he left island. I have had a black attorney. There are many affluent blacks in the VI and nothing keeps them from joining any of these social clubs or moving into any neighborhood that they like.

As for wealth distribution in the VI, why don't more blacks own businesses? I have met many of the Arabs on island. I assume they are white by your definition. Many came to the islands as refugees from Palestine in the 1960's. They didn't have much money. Now they own most of the groceries and gas stations.

How would you suggest that wealth be redistributed? Should it be race based?

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Posted : December 9, 2015 7:32 pm
Spartygrad95
(@Spartygrad95)
Trusted Member

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/06/weekinreview/06Luo.html

You see.. I've never had to change my name on a resume. Or "whiten" my resume. To me, this is what racism is. I cannot feel it or truly appreciate it. It is there though. I haven't had to "blacken" myself to be accepted here.

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Posted : December 9, 2015 7:45 pm
monogram
(@monogram)
Advanced Member

Sunny Isle - the De Chaberts owned it, and the land that Hess bought:

Correct, with the key word being "owned." Many were upset with them when they sold the last bastion of locally-owned private wealth. You and I both know that Sunny Isle isn't owned by locals. LOL.

Even if they did own it today, that would be what, 1 out of the largest 20 businesses owned by a local?

And yes, the government is mostly run by locals. But most would agree that private sector jobs are more desirable from an upward mobility perspective than government gigs. No one (besides the corrupt) will get rich off a government gig. The real money is in the private sector, and locals should have access to the "real money" as well. That's why private sector wealth is often used by economists when determining the economic isolation/discrimination. I went to a boat parade on STX once and observed that there wasn't a single black-owned boat. This was shocking, considering the fact that the VI is 85% black. I think most will agree that everyone should have the opportunity to work hard enough to make it into the upper middle class. And that route will typically not be through working for the gov't.

The Debeers in Africa would never trade in their diamond mines for a government gig. We all know why. There's a reason Karl Marx defined the elite (bourgeoisie) as those who own the private wealth and means of production.

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Posted : December 9, 2015 8:22 pm
monogram
(@monogram)
Advanced Member

How would you suggest that wealth be redistributed? Should it be race based?

Not at all-- wealth should never be distributed! Thatcher would disapprove of that!

I only pointed out the disproportionate ownership of Virgin Islands wealth to disprove YOUR contention that the VI is somehow racist against whites.

And trust me--the Palestinians who came here and prospered would not have been so prosperous had they instead moved to Israel. Most would admit that. I'd reckon that they would not have even fared as well had they moved to certain communities in the U.S. The VI, as we do with most whites, welcomed them with open arms and allowed them to make millions of dollars through our financial support. Not an ounce of structural racism.

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Posted : December 9, 2015 8:34 pm
islandjoan
(@islandjoan)
Trusted Member

Monogram, Festus Pemberton is a black boat owner who used to participate in the parade.

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Posted : December 9, 2015 9:01 pm
rotorhead
(@rotorhead)
Trusted Member

And trust me--the Palestinians who came here and prospered would not have been so prosperous had they instead moved to Israel. Most would admit that. I'd reckon that they would not have even fared as well had they moved to certain communities in the U.S. The VI, as we do with most whites, welcomed them with open arms and allowed them to make millions of dollars through our financial support. Not an ounce of structural racism.

You missed the point. If the Palestinians were able to come here and prosper with nothing, why can't Crucians prosper here? Is there someone here who is stopping them from being successful? Is there racial discrimination here against the local people? Why aren't there more prosperous Crucians joining the Yacht Club and buying boats? Are there white people here preventing locals from prospering as much as the Palestinians have prospered?

One of the Palestinians told me about his father going door to door with a suitcase selling stuff in order to save up enough money to start a business. Then the whole family pooling their money to start the business. Then working hard and plowing profits back into the business.

What keeps local people from doing the same? Who is suppressing them besides themselves? Why don't locals own the gas stations and grocery stores?

It is much easier to sit around and complain than it is to get off of your ass and actually do something. Start your own business. In a community which by your estimate is 85% black a black person should not have to worry about institutional racism here. Do you expect for the white business owners, who you say own everything and have struggled to make their businesses work, are going to hand them over to a local as a going concern?

If there is no structural racism here then the locals should be thriving. Who is holding them back?

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Posted : December 9, 2015 11:13 pm
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