Talkin' 'Bout My Reparations...  

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trw
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August 30, 2008 7:11 pm  

actually the arabs, a long time after the ancient egyptians, were the first african slave traders and that was a few hundred years before europe ever thought of it. all ancient cultures had slaves from raids or conquests, i have a great book on slavery in the roman empire,back then they even had books on the care and treatment of slaves,they also had set laws in ancient sumer about the same subject and that would have been 5 to 6 thousand years ago.


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AllMashUp
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August 30, 2008 7:53 pm  

AllMashUp,

Being an expert on the subject (!?) I would say "nowhere". Your people were not considered chattel in the sense of slavery as it developed in the New World. Here, your rights as a human being would have been in theory totally extinguished. The Spanish and Portuguese reserved the right of enslaved to be baptised as (Catholic) Christians and apparently they were even of required to do so. It was the British and others who took the concept of enslavement. and industrialized it.

PT

Excuse my ignorance but the last time I read a history book, the Barbary Pirates were Muslims and they enslaved Europeans for rowing in the cosairs galleys as well as sold them as sex slaves and workers for quarries..aka...industrial workers. I'm sure the Spanish and Portugese did some enslaving as well but that's not what I was referring to.


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DUN
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August 31, 2008 2:06 am  

I agree with Alex!
I couldn't`t have said it better!
I remember meeting & working with a very talented mechanic , a Portuguese person who worked in Angola for a British corporation.
His take on the handouts given to generations past slaves was."In Angola, no work= no eat"
I think the US (& it`s territories)would be much better off with that approach,
Incentive is a strong motivator.
Dun


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Trade
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August 31, 2008 9:32 am  

That we even have to call attention to his color points out that in 200 years, our collective hearts have gotten nowhere

Oh, nonsense. His color was mentioned here because we were discussing black slavery, even though I think his father was Kenyan, not a descendant of slaves. I can remember when JFK was running for President & the discussion about him being Irish & how his parents never could make it in old Boston society because of it.

~Trade~


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Lizard
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August 31, 2008 9:50 am  

Trade,
No dog in this race, But Kennedy was an "Irish Catholic" it was more the Catholic part or at least equal to their non acceptance as Blue Blood Society at the time.


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EngRMP
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August 31, 2008 11:34 am  

So many conflicting thoughts swimming around my brain on this subject:
- I hate the idea of people being able to scam the "system".

- however, the mistakes of past history should not be judged by the actions of people in the present. The concept of slavery can't ever be seen as "acceptable" for mankind. The spirit of reparations should prevail over the practicality of scam artists. Therefore, at a minimum, those that perpetuated slavery should acknowledge the wrong and publicly apologize and condemn it.

- I don't know how anyone can establish a level of monetary compensation for slavery (although I'm sure that lawyers deal with this similar issue all the time). And, I don't know how anyone decides when monetary compensation is appropriate, but again, I'm sure that lawyers can come up with arguments for formulas.

- I like the idea of any payments being used in the best way for the total population (current and future). I'm sure that lawyers could decide that if 5-10 (just a guess) generations of slaves have lived to date, and we estimate that at least 100 more generations of slaves could live in the future, then 90% of any $reparations should go to the future generations (like, through education, as Trade suggests).

- if these folks don't deserve reparations, then do the jews deserve the right to try to recover art stolen by the Nazis, or money sitting in Swiss banks?

- I don't mean to imply that I condone slavery in any way..... but, think of how daunting a task it must have been to come to America as some of the first people, trying to establish some form of agriculture business. There is no way that your family could be big enough to supply the needed labor. And I can see that it might be very difficult to get a bunch of your friends to agree to pick up roots and move to America to start a new business. And, there wasn't an available work force to hire. So, I can see that slavery would have looked very attractive. In fact, I don't know how America would have started without it (assuming that agriculture business was important to the startup of America). Now, if that is true, then we owe these past slaves in a HUGE way. We as a nation (finally) abolished slavery and publicly condemned it (not until constitutional amendment 13!).

Anita:
- Obama speaks about the world, and people in general, the way I like to hear. So, I really like that aspect of him.
- I am also tickled pink that he is black, for many reasons:
------- he brings a new perspective to the presidency, which will be good for all of us to see (I hope)
------- I can't tell you how proud I am of our country for finally publicly stating to the world that many of us believe that someone who is not white can represent us at the highest office of our government. What a wonderful celebration of the good of diversity.
------- the symbolism of the next president of the US being a black man ... 200 years after Lincoln, who freed the slaves, was born... it has taken us so long...


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antiqueone
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August 31, 2008 2:09 pm  

We are born naked and we die naked. What we do in between reveals our character. What happened before we came is the condition in which we must live and move and have our being. Instead of reparations for the past injustice of slavery we should be working hard to end current slavery in Africa and elsewhere. Instead of moaning for "someone" to apologize to us, we should forgive.

EngRMP: Obama is a great orator and is very likeable, but anyone who supports a bill that allows babies who survive the abortion procedure to be left to die in a linen closet has a huge character flaw or blind spot in my book and has no business running the country. It is time we looked at strength of character and integrity instead of color or gender or social connections when we vote. Especially here in the VI


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Betty
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August 31, 2008 2:15 pm  

How much longer will it take to have an Native indian president who's land we stole and population we mostly wiped out and destroyed? By alluding to the fact that having a black president some how means we've evolved or come so far is hog wash. It makes up for nothing. He is just another politican and no matter his color you all would do better to listen carefully to what he says and what he doesnt say about what he is planning to do. Universal healthcare scares the crap out of my pocketbook and it should scare any middle class american. Who do you think will pay for it? Get ready for taxes to go way up.

As far as reparations, there are plent of black families that were free and also owned slaves and the decendants of those families still live on island. Are they asking for reparations from them?? Its all nonsense. I agree its very important to know the past, but you can't live in it. Lets focus on todays problems. You especially can't expect someone to aplologize for great great grandfathers mistakes. Next, you'll be allowing people to sue for what their great great grandfathers did, the laywers will LOVE it!


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stiphy
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August 31, 2008 4:33 pm  

Some great views and discussions on this thread.

Just had a thought that made me laugh (in fear maybe): Can you imagine universal healthcare if administered by the VI govt. Think the likes of WAPA running your healthcare and you having no choice in the matter!

Sean


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A Davis
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August 31, 2008 11:33 pm  

That we even have to call attention to his color points out that in 200 years, our collective hearts have gotten nowhere

Oh, nonsense. His color was mentioned here because we were discussing black slavery, even though I think his father was Kenyan, not a descendant of slaves. I can remember when JFK was running for President & the discussion about him being Irish & how his parents never could make it in old Boston society because of it.

My contribution to this discussion is not 'nonsense'.

best to you,
anita.
"do the best that you can in the place where you are, and be kind."
--- scott nearing


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Trade
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September 1, 2008 8:40 am  

Lizard, I know it was the Catholic thing that stopped many voters but it was really a feather in Joseph Kennedy's hat (naturally) that his son was elected & part of it was that the Kennedys had been snubbed for a long time in Boston society BECAUSE they were Irish. Both he & his wife & many other Irish were never able to attain social status in the snobbiest city in the US at the time solely because they were Irish & not that far from the time when signs were up "Irish need not apply."

~Trade~


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islandtyme
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September 1, 2008 1:21 pm  

Plus the Kennedys got their money running moonshine........................
They earned money the old fashioned way, they stole it - HA!


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trw
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September 1, 2008 1:27 pm  

some lady wrote a letter to the source a few days back about the moorhead reparations thing and she obivously is an older lady with a long memory and seems to be very bitter towards the moorhead family,now i'd like to know what that bit of history is about.


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Lizard
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September 1, 2008 2:28 pm  

Don't want to have this thread morph into Kennedy bashing. However the allegations of running alcohol from Canada to the US was never proven to date. Joe Kennedy made his big money by creating RKO. I don't really get the statement "they Stole", good luck with that one.


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T
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September 1, 2008 3:02 pm  

It's funny how you never hear of Irish people talking about reparations when they were also sold as slaves and looked upon as "lower" than other humans" The English and the Vikings have taken nearly everything from them from their religion, their land, their women, displaced millions to other lands only to mistreat them more and more. Yet the Irish did something about it and rose above and quitely took back their equality, respect, and religion little by little without asking for reparations.

Look at modern day Africa and what they are doing to their own people. They are CONTINUING to take from their own people for the sake of greed and power. Millions of people displaced due to warlords fighting over regions promised to them by government powers. Governments usurping power just to keep madmen like Robert Mugabe in power. He not only hurts his own people but is damaging the other nations that border him and continues to erode the power base of African nations. What some black-americans are looking for is equality and legitimization but that can't occur without making the Africans responsible for their own actions and bringing the tumoil in Africa back into check. I'm not saying that Whites or other cultures haven't done their part to hurt the process, but Whites are some of the most helpful when the blacks needed the help to get on their feet in the past several decades. And some of those whites faced terrible odds trying to help everyone be on equal footing. Most whites can't understand why the blacks don't take more responsibility and focus on the stabilization of Africa and ask the tough questions of why did his happen and how can we all, (regardless of color), fix it and go on with life. Life is short, is it going to be your focus to live it fighting with people who want to see you and themselves succeed?

As Spike Lee said "do the right thing" means something different for each of us.....isn't it about time that Africa listened? Look at all of those continuing displacements, murders, corruption, kidnappings, wars, power struggles, etc..etc...etc...

Reparations should start with the "motherland"....the mothers generally protect their young instead of put them down....Africa is the one problem that continues to kill it's own people like no other place on Earth. Focus on the real enemy. People who kill their own people for the sake of greed and power.

T.

America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. ------Abraham Lincoln


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trw
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September 1, 2008 3:08 pm  

um T i did bring up the subject of reparations for the irish early on in this thread,but the idea is so truly laughable because the irish as you said have risen above it,even though england continues to persecute the irish in northern ireland,whats the old saying? i think it's this"the irish were kings when the english were roman slaves"


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islandtyme
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September 1, 2008 3:43 pm  

Wasn't Kennedy bashing..........selling illegal substances is stealing! And driving while drunk, driving off a bridge & leaving my girlfriend in the water to die & reporting it days later..........Ahhhhhhh life is good if you're a Kennedy! I'm sure there are positive things to say about them....like great teeth! Seriously, I'm sure they have done plenty good for the states they represent.

Oh and ummmmmmmmmmmm I'm Irish........

Lets face it an injustice has been placed on almost every race & ethnic background. As long as you remain in the past you can never really go forward. Not saying forget the pains & strife s suffered, just rise above & quit expecting someone to "give" you something..........you get as much as you give. Sitting around complaining does not bring change...........getting out there & being "hands on" brings about change.


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Lizard
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September 1, 2008 3:54 pm  

could of fooled me!


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stiphy
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September 1, 2008 10:59 pm  

How is selling illegal substances stealing? I don't get that statement at all...do explain!

To me using government violence to ban the sale of a substance is wrong. Selling an honestly acquired substance or service to someone who wants to buy it voluntarily should not be a crime as there is no violence involved. The violence is perpetrated by the government when they make the free association and trade between two human beings something they will physically lock you in a cage for.

I am truly non-violent so I believe the only proper role of government and their monopoly on "legal violence" is to prevent violence. That is why I'm curious why you feel that selling an illegal substance is "stealing" (which I view to be a violent act). I've honestly never heard anyone say this when I present my admitadly controversial views and I'm wondering if there is an entire philosophical argument that I've missed.

Sean


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Betty
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September 1, 2008 11:11 pm  

I know you weren't talking to me but I had a point of view on this...I could care less what adults do or buy in there free time. But its not fair that they do not have to pay taxes like the rest of us. This goes for strippers, prostitues, and drug dealers. It all should be legal, it should be governed and taxed. But of coarse the government has to legalize the drugs and sex for money first (not the strippers I mean) before they can be taxed. So I do feel like they are stealing and currently doing something illegal even if I do think it should not be illegal.

My feeling is I'm not mad at the government for enforcening laws when they are laws, but I don't really care enough about them being to fight for it either. I would vote for them to be leaglized,but not lead the march to Washington. Neither or things I want to do but we could use the tax dollars, just like from cigarettes and booze. Not having to fight the "war on drugs" would save alot of tax laws and stop creating laws that take away our privacy.


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Trade
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September 2, 2008 9:08 am  

Heck, we don't even collect what we should be collecting in tax dollars from taxi drivers or street vendors.

~Trade~


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islandtyme
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September 2, 2008 2:04 pm  

yup...............selling illegal substances = stealing.......be it most people buy it by their own choice, but the harder stuff (crack & heroine) takes food from children's mouths.Not to mention the crime & violence, plus our youth losing their lives.......... And the ones whom just cant quit can apply for government monies.......did y'noe a junkie is considered a disability? So once again they get tax dollars......for illegal substances.
I agree it all should be legalized!!! Maybe a junkie could be saved, but more our youth will live longer & be inspired to be more than some gang banging uneducated thug..............they are our future!


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stiphy
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September 2, 2008 9:48 pm  

Interesting perspective IT. I don't agree, I blame the junkie (especially the one's with kids) for the choices they made. They are the one "stealing" from their children's mouths. The dealer is just providing a service, a service that some use resposibly and others irresponsibly. I've spoken with relatives who have gone through rehab and they concur, the problem doesn't lie with the dealers but with themselves (when they were using). Although that is a core part of the 12 steps etc. I guess.

Betty, I agree that they should be paying taxes if the rest of us have to, although I think that to tax a man when he works (income tax) is one of the most evil things mankind has ever come up with as it creates another form of slavery. I think the real "theives" when it comes to taxes is the government itself...they are the ones taking the fruits of my labor from me. I can't fault a man for not paying his taxes to a government that a) won't take him and b) put him out of business (DEA).

And no, I don't use drugs...never have and never likely will. I am just pro-freedom on pretty much everything and despise the fact that my tax dollars go to fund the DEA which has led to the same problems that we learned about during prohibition.

Sean


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sugarlander
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September 2, 2008 11:01 pm  

Hmmm.... if there's any reparations to be had, I trust that will be taxable.


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T
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September 5, 2008 11:37 pm  

I would like reparations from all of the shop owners who have been rude to me just because I'm Irish, I'm white and then treated me like some 3rd class tourist. I live here and I help my neighbors when they call without asking what color their skin is..... So where's my reparations? I want Adelbert Bryan to pay every person he's ever been mean and cruel to just becasue their skin color didn't match his or their nationality wasn't the same as his.

I hope the devil has his name on the most deserving of the flames of the everlasting firepit.

Just my honest opinion. Oh, and I still want to get paid or being mistreated while I still had to pay for all of the merchandise and the lack of smiles and customer service....and just think...I don't care what skin color the person was.... treat me and my fellow islanders with respect, kindness and love.

T.

America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. ------Abraham Lincoln


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