Notifications
Clear all

What's the point?

Page 1 / 2
 
blu4u
(@blu4u)
Trusted Member

Is this message board about giving reolcation advice or is it about bashing the VI, insulting the west indian population or harassing "newbies" ?

For anyone looking to make a move please consider:
Most of the regular posters on this board are white and over 50.
Most of the views promoted here are commonly held by the majority of the population.
Most of the VI's population is west indian and under 50.
Most of the population are warm and community oriented.
Most of VI residents face the same everday challenges as stateside residents: raising kids, keeping a good well paying job, ect.
Some folks move down because they are dissatisfied with their current existence.
Some folks relocate here because of work or school or adventure.
Some folks find what they had hoped for; achieve their goals; set new goals; and move on.
Some of folks stay on because they love it.
Some folks stay because they have no choice.
Some folks leave because they are dissatisfied.
Some folks leave with re-aligned values and a new sense of self discovery knowing that island life (expense, crime, poverty, lack of 21st century amenities) is not for them.
Some folks grow, mature, progress into different life stage and The VI is no longer compatible with their priorities.
Some people will be grumpy or bitter no matter where they live.
Some folks will be financially and socially successful no matter where they live.
It's a matter of learning how to play the hand you're dealt. "know when hold 'em. Know when to fold 'em"
To borrow from another thread, "People's opinions say more about them then the island they live on."

True happiness in this world is hard to come by. More power to anyone who is striving to create a better life for themselves, their family and community.

If you have sense of adeventure, flexibilty of spirit and willingness to adapt, then go for it.

Via con Dios.

Quote
Topic starter Posted : July 23, 2012 9:07 pm
Alana33
(@alana33)
Expert

Most "new- be here's" shall not have a clue about quality and magnitude about living here until they have done so for 25 yrs, of more.
I am sorry I have offended your sensiblilites, Blu4U - but quite true.

We, who have done so, do not offer information with bitternes or condensation but with a realistic out-look on how we have lived here, what we see, exprience and how we have coped, made and lost friends, found how to live our lives and be productive and pay the ever increasing COL without the services while watching a goverment in the past and currently, make no attempt to budget and do the best for those who live work and pay taxes here.

It is quite true that "Island Living" is not for everyone!
That cannot sometimes be explained to people that think it is Paradise,
We have been thru Hurricanes that have devestated the islands. Try going 3 -4 months without power, phone and all conveiences and attempting ot get anything done. It takes years, if you have the stamina. Daily living and dealing with everything takes fortitude.

Get over your new to islands "I know everything attitude" Be here for awhile and make an attempt to make things better while doing so.

ReplyQuote
Posted : July 23, 2012 9:50 pm
blu4u
(@blu4u)
Trusted Member

My family has mantained a residence on STT for 3 generations. Most likely we know each other in real life. We lost everything (material that is) in '95. Stayed with two small childern, no electric, no running water, no structure, rebuilt and grew stronger. I've lived in and out of the VI for 50+ years.. -FYI

ReplyQuote
Topic starter Posted : July 23, 2012 9:57 pm
rhstoo
(@rhstoo)
Advanced Member

Thanks Blu4U. We've been here for two (only two) years and love it here. It's not perfect but neither was Alexandria.

ReplyQuote
Posted : July 23, 2012 10:01 pm
Alana33
(@alana33)
Expert

My family has mantained a residence on STT for 3 generations. Most likely we know each other in real life. We lost everything (material that is) in '95. Stayed with two small childern, no electric, no running water, no structure, rebuilt and grew stronger. I've lived in and out of the VI for 50+ years.. -FYI

Glad to hear it. You should then know how how things work.

ReplyQuote
Posted : July 23, 2012 10:18 pm
TamiP
(@TamiP)
Advanced Member

I sincerely appreciate your original post blu! I was beginning to wonder if I was over reacting or misunderstanding the posts that had me so upset. It makes me feel great that I'm not the only one.

It really is sad that some need to put their negative sniping in the guise of help and not only ruin peoples day but give the impression that the VI just doesn't want them there.

The posts had nothing to do with anything you said alana. However, I can't believe it would take 25 years to get to know a place or a way of life, you don't have to be an expert to give friendly advice. Everyone's opinion is valuable regardless of how long they've been there. It's getting info from a different perspective that is important. As blu stated, everyone has a different reason for considering relocation.

As for trying to tell all the negative, I have lived on an island in a third world country and have been through most of the "nasties" before. Super typhoons that had us out of power for months and destroyed most of the infrastructure, 7.5 earthquake that accordioned several grammer schools and killed thousands. A volcano eruption had us choking on ashes for quite a long time. I realize most people coming from the states probably don't have that under their belt and expect it to be just like here.

The reason we are looking at STX is simply because it is a US territory and closer to the mainland. Add to that the available services, medical, internet, cable tv, garbage dumpsters, grocery stores, and it does seem like paradise. If the services aren't perfect at least you have them. Lots of place still don't. In truth, I am a little concerned that it may be too civilized for us. We were very happy with island life and left only so the kids could finish their schooling, college, in the US. A degree from where we were would have been useless to them on the mainland. The kids are all living their own lives now and it's time for us to get back to a way of living that we love.

Thank you for making me feel like we might just be welcomed blu.

ReplyQuote
Posted : July 23, 2012 11:02 pm
dougtamjj
(@dougtamjj)
Expert

When I first decided I wanted to move to St. Croix I did a lot of research about the culture and life on St. Croix. I ordered all the books and read every moving story. I have probably read more posts on this message board than anyone else. I started at the beginning and read for hours every night. I posted, asked questions and took advice. I almost changed my mind because of many warnings about crime, cost of living ect. I took great offense at some of the replies to my questions treating me as though I was too ignorant to survive because I was in my 40s and well traveled. However all those replies to my posts were right on. The cost of living on St. Croix is incredibly high especially for someone who just moved there. My first electric bill was $1200.00. I almost threw up when I opened it. The crime issue worried me because I had a 2 year old son, a daughter in her 20s and a disabled mother to protect. I decided to take the risk.

I am extremely adventurous. I have lived all over the place. By the time I graduated I had attended 22 schools so lets just say I am adaptable. St. Croix was a challenge for me but I love challenges. I love the feeling of figuring it all out. Not all people are like me but I never tell anyone not to try something new. All you can do is tell them what it is like here and let them make their own "adult" choices. Not all will be able to survive but failure is the "best" experience in life.

Tart was one of those people who almost discouraged me from moving here, but because I study people I gave it some time and read many of her posts going back years and found myself laughing and having a great respect for her. I think she is a self described old "tart" with a lot of wisdom. Her intentions are very well meaning. I would love to hang out with her just to listen to her stories and about her life on STT. She also cooks really, really good and loves animals. I also get along very well with people who say exactly what they think. LOL.

There was a group I used to call the nasty girls on this message board. Jane comes to mind, however I won't identify the others. A couple a guys as well. They are all gone now, or posting under different names. ( You never know anymore who is posting) Between them all on the moving forum I didn't think anyone would move here. Nothing good to say at all. If you questioned them on their negativity they would say, "well it's our job to point out the negative. The positives are apparent." They were not well intentioned, just nasty miserable, Bs.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that if you are moving here and have a question you will get all sorts of replies. Some you will like and some you won't. Take it all in and make a decision. We are all different people and all have different abilities. Living on St. Croix is not easy if you don't have enough money. It isn't horrible either. You have to learn to eat different, learn to live without AC, maybe homeschool your children, internet sucks, ATT has horrible service on the east end and the power goes out often. It's doable. For the most part people who take the time to post and answer questions are not trying to be mean, bitter, ugly or anything else. They just know what it is like here. What they don't know is you, your abilities, personality, finances or anything else but they are honestly try to save you some heartache. Take it all in and make a decision. Honestly, only one of my 5 adult children could live here and be happy. The rest would be miserable. My 8 year old son who has been raised on island is miserable in the states if he has to be here more than 2 weeks. We are all different.

For me, I love, love, love St. Croix. My son is happy here and I love that when I go and sit on the beach I am away from all the stress that my business and life in general brings me if only for a short time. I love the "few" wonderful life long friends I have made here. I won't be here forever, I don't brag or feel entitled because I am able to "survive" living here". (rolling my eyes). I have often thought about making badges for state siders, transplants, whatever, announcing how long they have "survived" living on island.

For the newbies or people considering moving here, EVERYONE (transplants not people born in the VI) you meet will want to know how long you've been here, where do you live, what private school your child attends, and what you do for a living. Five minutes into any conversation the person you are talking to will ask you those 4 questions. Then they will decide wether or not you are worth talking to or what you can do for them. Then they will proceed to tell you how long they have lived here and what their status on island is. Quite funny.

Tourist or vacationers will ask you how are you able to live in paradise, where do you work and how can they do it. I love to answer those questions.

The happiest family I ever met here was a couple with 3 children who moved here to work for Hovensa. They were here for a couple of weeks when the announcement came that Hovensa was closing. They explored, embraced, enjoyed and loved everything this island had to offer. A 6 month vacation with pay. Whenever I get impatient or upset with anything on St. Croix I think about them and how they lived and enjoyed everything the island had to offer without complaint.

Sorry this post is rambling and disjointed. My 8 year old son will not leave me alone and I have to keep going to see what he has found outside.

Have a good night everyone.

Tam

ReplyQuote
Posted : July 24, 2012 1:01 am
VIsnorkeler
(@VIsnorkeler)
Trusted Member

Well said, Tam

ReplyQuote
Posted : July 24, 2012 1:45 am
dougtamjj
(@dougtamjj)
Expert

🙂

ReplyQuote
Posted : July 24, 2012 1:47 am
islandlovin
(@islandlovin)
Advanced Member

I think the problem is that if you dont agree with the "oldbie's" they tend to bash you on here. After only living on island for 6 monthes i might agree with the opinions the 'oldbies" post. It's just i dont get their delivery. Someone asks how difficult it is to aquire a restaurant job here on island and like 5 'oldbies' start with you know its expensive, you know its not like where you are coming from, you know most people dont stay here long, Seriously i bet most people who post on here as 'newbies' already know its expensive, that its not like home, etc. If i let these "oldbies" get to me enough i might not have made this move here. It was my dream to move to an island and experience everything good and bad, its an experience i will never forget. And so if it turns out i return home to the states at least i can say i had a great time, i tried something so many people dream about, i have a story to tell everyone(cause everyone will ask me how long did i live on an island, what did you do there, what was it like,etc.) . I am so confused why 'oldbies" think its such a bad thing that people move on island and move back to the states. If nothing else it pumps money into your local business. The 'oldbies' love tourist so think of the temporary residents as tourist who made one LONG vacation here. And honestly boohoo that you have made friends and lost the friendships when they left for their original homes - it happens everywhere. I have had friends move to CA, FL, NY, CO - and it sucked but thats life anywhere you live.

p.s. You do not have to be here 25 years to have an opinion i dont think i know everything i just state my opinions which is the purpose to this board. Sorry you have experienced 3 months with no electric doesnt mean your a better island resident. Its like you are bitter that people are enjoying life and hadnt had to struggle i never heard anything so selfish in my life. And just so you know St Thomas is not the only place that experiences mother nature, Florida gets hit with hurricanes all the time, what about tornados that hit in the southern states all the time. Tornado victims would never feel intitled to their state because they experienced devastation and more importantly they would never say you need to live there 25 years so you can experience a tornado to be allowed to have an opinion of the land.

ReplyQuote
Posted : July 24, 2012 1:49 am
blu4u
(@blu4u)
Trusted Member

I think the point is that respect is TWO WAY STREET. Just because someone is "new" to the Terroitory or the forum, doesn't mean thier opinion is invalid. Espeically opinions about relocating.

I think there is way too much "hazing" on this forum which distracts from the topics in question. At least that is my experience. When I first started posting ALL my posts were questioned or ridculed. I found it insulting, almost to point of cruel. The regulars (actually one regular in particular) assumed I was new to island and made comments like I'd "be wise to keep my mouth closed and ears open", "begs the question of how long you've been here", "knows precious little about the islands", "should have more respect for your elders". That poster made some very stupid assumtions about my ethnic origin in an attempt to discredit my opinions. That "person" doesn't know me. VI made me tough. I can hold my own, so tossed the crap back as fast as it came at me. VI has also made me tolerant of other cultures. (not too mention a $hitty speller) Something the reugulars here need to accept--tollernce (not the spelling).

Why degrade anyone's chracter because they hold a contrary opinion? Or have logged less time on de rox? Frankly, I just don't get it...

Why bully "newbies"? What is this the Marine Corps?

ReplyQuote
Topic starter Posted : July 24, 2012 1:58 am
blu4u
(@blu4u)
Trusted Member

Wait..... did ijust post the response on two different threads. Got go to bed befor I end up like the food stamp man.

And VIsnrk, Enjoyed your post about concordia. Glad to know your having fun. thanks for sharing.

And, your post having me looking forward to becoming a grand parent.

ReplyQuote
Topic starter Posted : July 24, 2012 1:59 am
dougtamjj
(@dougtamjj)
Expert

Islandlovin that is your perception. You don't know what "oldbies" are thinking when they give you advice. It is a generational thing. The last two generations tries to save each new generation from the mistakes they made. They are not trying to be mean, only trying to help and make things easier for you. What they are saying is absolutely correct but you don't want to hear it. How they deliver it is on a moving forum doesn't always sound like good advice. If you were in front of them it might sound a little more gently to your ears. Very few "transplants are able to come here and start a business and succeed. What the "oldbies" don't know is each person and their determination to succeed.

We just all need to be a little nicer to each other. Everyone who posts here are adults. Take the information, consider it, good or bad, whether you want to hear it or not and then make a decision. Don't kill the messenger. They are just giving you information. The people giving advice, (the messengers need to give advice with a little more respect) should give the information and move on. We are not everybodys mommy.

ReplyQuote
Posted : July 24, 2012 2:09 am
dougtamjj
(@dougtamjj)
Expert

Hey guys! Can't we all just get along!

Love ya all.

Tam

ReplyQuote
Posted : July 24, 2012 2:13 am
islandlovin
(@islandlovin)
Advanced Member

I would like to agree the old-be's might just be trying to help, but when i state my opinion and have everyone bash me because i have only been here 6 month and tell me to repost my opinon after i put in 25 years on the island(this was on a different thread) And if you read the above post you will see unless you have been here 25 years you dont have a clue about blah blah blah. i dont think thats helping me or anyone. Thats Bullying - everyone has an opinion and deserves to be heard. I dont think we all have to agree but i dont think telling me to repost after 25 years was friendly at all. Hey i have used this board for lots of helpful info i think everyone has valuable input on here. If you have seen some of my other post on other threads you will see i said i agree with some opinons from the old-be's, the problem is with them bashing new-be's opinions.

ReplyQuote
Posted : July 24, 2012 2:43 am
Exit Zero
(@exit-zero)
Trusted Member Registered

[been here well past 25 years]
- I try to offer realistic info on this and any forum - I will say any 'oldbies' [ a new category to me] would Never ask what someone does for a living though - very little judgement on that front overall - I think the enjoyment of VI living is a very individual process - what appeals to some new arrivals and what irritates others seems to be a wide chasm - some people read the Daily News or Avis and rail against the way things are - others don't pick up a newspaper for days at a time - some folks go shopping with a list and are disappointed when they can't easily find everything - others buy what is available and have no fretting over that at all - laughing over a frustration or stressing over it are 2 sides of the coin here that make or break the experience - anyone can find work - it just might not be what you expected but it can pay the bills - networking will always offer new opportunity - most people don't care what kind of car you drive - if you have designer clothes or not - what your address is - but your personal attitude and friendliness goes a long way - Universal and Unconditional Acceptance does seem to come with a longer tenure here is how I see it as far as a longevity factor./
I often tell the story that a man on his way to work one morning sees his friend on the waterfront and after the Morning greeting his friend says he is on the way to Morningstar to play some volleyball, have a Heineken and take a swim - a new stateside arrival comments that his friend seems to have no job, drinks alchohol in the morning and is likely on a downward spiral - the original working man decides to go to the beach tomorrow too and enjoy life - --- Thank Goodness for Island Life is my mantra.

EDITED : after reading a few later posts from the OP I will always take STT Residents advice over many others - it is not the Marine Corps here I agree - but I would take an Officers experienced opinion over a Privates opinion every time - Semper Fi!

ReplyQuote
Posted : July 24, 2012 7:02 am
wenchtoo
(@wenchtoo)
Advanced Member

[been here well past 25 years]
- I try to offer realistic info on this and any forum - I will say any 'oldbies' [ a new category to me] would Never ask what someone does for a living though - very little judgement on that front overall - I think the enjoyment of VI living is a very individual process - what appeals to some new arrivals and what irritates others seems to be a wide chasm - some people read the Daily News or Avis and rail against the way things are - others don't pick up a newspaper for days at a time - some folks go shopping with a list and are disappointed when they can't easily find everything - others buy what is available and have no fretting over that at all - laughing over a frustration or stressing over it are 2 sides of the coin here that make or break the experience - anyone can find work - it just might not be what you expected but it can pay the bills - networking will always offer new opportunity - most people don't care what kind of car you drive - if you have designer clothes or not - what your address is - but your personal attitude and friendliness goes a long way - Universal and Unconditional Acceptance does seem to come with a longer tenure here is how I see it as far as a longevity factor./
I often tell the story that a man on his way to work one morning sees his friend on the waterfront and after the Morning greeting his friend says he is on the way to Morningstar to play some volleyball, have a Heineken and take a swim - a new stateside arrival comments that his friend seems to have no job, drinks alchohol in the morning and is likely on a downward spiral - the original working man decides to go to the beach tomorrow too and enjoy life - --- Thank Goodness for Island Life is my mantra.

EDITED : after reading a few later posts from the OP I will always take STT Residents advice over many others - it is not the Marine Corps here I agree - but I would take an Officers experienced opinion over a Privates opinion every time - Semper Fi!

(tu)

ReplyQuote
Posted : July 24, 2012 10:11 am
IslandHops
(@IslandHops)
Trusted Member

Is this message board about giving reolcation advice or is it about bashing the VI, insulting the west indian population or harassing "newbies" ?
...
Via con Dios

I always thought of this forum not restricted to relocation advise, but as a community forum to share experiences, frustrations, good times, advice - and humor (even from club snarky).

I don't think I've ever directly insulted the west indian population nor harassed newbies, yet some of my comments could be taken in that vein if you are of that mindset. I don't consider myself an oldie or newbie. I work full time, pay taxes, and deal with the day to day of island living.

I think St. Croix and St. Thomas both have very different cultures, and significant differences in economy and lifestyle. I do not believe that comments pertaining to experiences from one can be equally applied to the other. So when considering perspectives in response to comments on this forum the difference in location is a key factor.

For those relocating, dealing with the government in any form is likely to be the most frustrating aspects of island life, next to the challenges of grocery shopping 8-). I'll leave that as my last piece of advice.

If anyone knows of an online STX community forum (not relocation specific) where issues affecting life here can be freely discussed and debated then please let me know. And I'll avoid potentially insulting the latin culture by refraining from signing off with a spanish platitude. (Ha - Club Snarky Rules!) 😎

ReplyQuote
Posted : July 24, 2012 1:28 pm
Alana33
(@alana33)
Expert

Let's not harangue the old-bies either and drop the whole old-bies term thing.
All I meant to say originally was that people that have lived here longer have a different perception of how things are and gladly offer their information and advice, based on their experiences which is what people are asking us to do.
We all know that "Island Living" is not for everyone and that people relocating here shall find it different, depending where they lived previously.

For all of us, whether bahn here, been here or new here, dealing with Gov. is indeed the most frustrating aspect of island life, for all of us!

Let's all kiss and make-up!;)

ReplyQuote
Posted : July 24, 2012 10:36 pm
Bombi
(@Bombi)
Trusted Member

No problem, mon

ReplyQuote
Posted : July 24, 2012 11:11 pm
dbwilk
(@dbwilk)
Advanced Member

@blu4u i just had this same type conversation, on the phone, with Judy of St Croix car rental lady. I asked why so much negativity on the message boards about moving there. Her response was that she's been there 8 years and loves it. The cost of living is more but felt it was well worth it. I could feel the enjoyment in her tone. That being said, it's hard to tell the tone through message boards so maybe I'm miss understanding what I read. Maybe some of the elders of the island wouldn't mind PM ing their phone number to certain posters and have a meaningful conversation and this might lighten the tone being taken through the board. I've talked to a couple of residents and that has helped with my perception of St. Croix and I'm now scheduled for PMV visit 8-4.

ReplyQuote
Posted : July 25, 2012 10:05 am
jostvandog
(@jostvandog)
Advanced Member

I've been here six months here's what I've learned...
1. when shopping if you want it buy one if you need it buy two.
2. as a continental, iniate conversations when taking to the locals, with a good morning,afternoon evening or how are you. It will tkae you far
3. ask questions, as questions ask questions
4. never lose your sense of humor.
5.I knew island life was hard and it is confirmed, but when I have a bad day, Im still having a bad day in St Croix not bad
6. as far as dealing with the locals. I'm on thier island, I must respect that. They use a different box of tools here
7. the book "Dont Stop The Carnival" has to be a true story
8.if you shop right it, food costs are not that bad
9 when you meet an older local, stop and chat they are better thsn any history book or post here
10 when talking to tourists remember they are our guests, we are the hosts.....we want them to come back or tell friends

ReplyQuote
Posted : July 25, 2012 10:55 am
fdr
 fdr
(@fdr)
Trusted Member

Nice list! Here's what I would add after a few more years of island living:

1. when shopping if you want it buy one if you need it buy two.

If you THINK you might want it at any point in the next 6 months, buy one. If you will NEED it during that time, buy at least two. But if there are only two left, it's rude to buy them both -- leave the last one for your neighbor who might need it. (Unless you are planning to give one of them to a friend anyway, then it's OK.)

2. as a continental, iniate conversations when taking to the locals, with a good morning,afternoon evening or how are you.

And "good night" is a proper greeting after dark.

3. ask questions, as questions ask questions

Always ask from a place of curiosity, never one of demanding answers.

4. never lose your sense of humor.

And when you do, make sure you have some sure-fire ways of relaxing that will help you get it back. The frustrations of island living eventually get to almost everyone at some point. Although popular, alcohol is not the most reliable method.

5.I knew island life was hard and it is confirmed, but when I have a bad day, Im still having a bad day in St Croix not ba

As long as you love the place where you live, life will be better than it will elsewhere, even on bad days. Paradise is a state of mind; some live here for years and never find it.

6. as far as dealing with the locals. I'm on thier island, I must respect that. They use a different box of tools here

VERY true.

7. the book "Dont Stop The Carnival" has to be a true story

Long-time STT folks can tell you who the characters are based on.

8.if you shop right it, food costs are not that bad

That depends on what you are used to pay for food in the states and how healthy your diet is. There are certain common stateside foods you will not likely be able to get here, or at least will never be able to get very good quality.

9 when you meet an older local, stop and chat they are better thsn any history book or post here

Some are, some aren't. Just like older people everywhere.

10 when talking to tourists remember they are our guests, we are the hosts.....we want them to come back or tell friends

I can think of some tourists I do NOT want to come back -- those who don't respect nature or don't care about VI culture being different from the states. Be polite to everyone, but if you see a tourist being a jerk, speak up.

ReplyQuote
Posted : July 25, 2012 12:57 pm
Neil
 Neil
(@Neil)
Trusted Member

Good OP blue4u...

But let's also note that as you say, you have lived here "in an out for THREE GENERATIONS" ---which means your experience and feel for the island is VERY different from those who have NEVER lived here.

Whereas, those of us who chose to "leave it all behind" and move to this VERY different new place are MORE LIKE many of those thinking about relocating.

I particularly liked Linda J's observation that the real caution here is those who move with kids.

Note: My family and I moved off of STX this past year. The job situation for all four of us and the lack of certain needed medical care chased us off, ....and we miss the place every single day.

This is perhaps the BIGGEST REVELATION about trying to live on an island versus living in the states. On an island, if you need to find different job, and want one that pays decent and matches what you're trained for =good freakin luck=. Whereas in the states, you usually don't have to uproot your family to switch jobs.

ReplyQuote
Posted : July 25, 2012 9:40 pm
CajunlostinCali
(@CajunlostinCali)
Active Member

Tart was one of those people who almost discouraged me from moving here, but because I study people I gave it some time and read many of her posts going back years and found myself laughing and having a great respect for her. I think she is a self described old "tart" with a lot of wisdom. Her intentions are very well meaning. I would love to hang out with her just to listen to her stories and about her life on STT. She also cooks really, really good and loves animals. I also get along very well with people who say exactly what they think. LOL.

I agree whole heatedly however...Tart is a woman? Wow, been reading for 3 months and always thought Tart was a man! Apologies Tart. I have come to looking forward to your post. I can see the elder isms but acknowledge that there is some fantastic advise given. Whatever you do, don't stop being you.

ReplyQuote
Posted : July 26, 2012 4:39 pm
Page 1 / 2
Close Menu