Dog Food...

So I got these chickens today.......

Juuuuuuust kidding... damn its heavy up in here.

I went to the vet a few times before I learned they are basically reject doctors that follow the same allopathic medicine techniques and are corrupted by pharmaceuticals and dog food influences as well.

Okay, this is ansolutely not true. It is MUCH harder to get accepted into vet school than medical school. If you don't have at least a 3.5 (minimum), 1000's of hours in formal veterinary experience and animal experience (no, pet ownership doesn't count), you are not getting in. Veterinary schools often have more course requirements than medical school to get in. I can't believe the GPA's of some people accepted to human medical school. I know people who couldn't get into vet school after a few tries and guess what they are doing now? Yep. they are human doctors.

Veterinary school is 4 years, post-bachelors just like medical school. Human doctors learn one species; vets learn how to treat dogs, cats, horses, cows, chickens, sheep, pigs, rats, rabbits, ferrets, lizards, turtles...etc...Many vets speicalize after vet school, doing an internship and then residency and then getting board certified. Basically, vets are highly trained, highly skilled individuals that CHOOSE to go into veterinary medicine (and NOT because they didn't get into med school), because they love and care about animals. Wait until one of your boerbals bloats, or needs orthopedic surgery for a torn ACL...you will be very happy for the high level of training your veterinarian has received.

The "go to the dump to get a fridge" comment shows your opinion of dogs in shelters, which is unfortunately a fairly common one and also completely wrong.

IMO, I believe any money put toward studying dogs eating habits and what is or is not good for your dog comes out of money given to said research by the dog food companies. Hmmm, so what do you think they would say? Really?

My Standard Poodle was a two year old rescue from a specific breed rescue. When I got him he was already eating a diet of raw meat and bones. I tried to get him to eat dry dog food eleven years ago to no avail.

I say to proof is in the pudding. A 13+ year old dog only eating raw meat and bones who has already lived past his average age, with very healthy gums, teeth and coat with only a couple of ear infections as his only health need, is pretty good proof eating raw will not hurt you.

It is not proof that all dogs can tolorate this type of diet nor that it is good for them, just that yours has been lucky enough to be able to do so without it kiliing him or compromising his health, to this point in time. I wish you continued luck with his health.

It is not proof that all dogs can tolorate this type of diet nor that it is good for them, just that yours has been lucky enough to be able to do so without it kiliing him or compromising his health, to this point in time. I wish you continued luck with his health.

Since humans do not know all there is to know & very probably we know much less than we think we do (as we prove ourselves wrong often)

I'd say the best approach would be to try different foods on your dog, watch their behavior, coat health, eyes, skin, gums etc... and monitor their lawn decorations, find out what works for your pet.

I've found (7 dogs) that a raw diet works very well for the dogs I've owned (all large breed) and I have learned to avoid grains (all grains, corn, wheat, rice) as much as possible; none of my dogs have responded badly to this.

First hand knowledge is the only type of knowledge you A) REALLY know (Through personal observation and experiment) and B) can REALLY trust.

instead of continuing to think the world is flat (or grains are good for dogs in anything but a small fraction of their diet) just because your waiting for people with pieces of paper to tell you it's not is one way of doing things certainly; but not a very personally empowering one.

Here are 10 reasons why it’s a bad idea to give your dog a bone:

Broken teeth. This may call for expensive veterinary dentistry.
Mouth or tongue injuries. These can be very bloody and messy and may require a trip to see your veterinarian.
Bone gets looped around your dog’s lower jaw. This can be frightening or painful for your dog and potentially costly to you, as it usually means a trip to see your veterinarian.
Bone gets stuck in esophagus, the tube that food travels through to reach the stomach. Your dog may gag, trying to bring the bone back up, and will need to see your veterinarian.
Bone gets stuck in windpipe. This may happen if your dog accidentally inhales a small enough piece of bone. This is an emergency because your dog will have trouble breathing. Get your pet to your veterinarian immediately!
Bone gets stuck in stomach. It went down just fine, but the bone may be too big to pass out of the stomach and into the intestines. Depending on the bone’s size, your dog may need surgery or upper gastrointestinal endoscopy, a procedure in which your veterinarian uses a long tube with a built-in camera and grabbing tools to try to remove the stuck bone from the stomach.
Bone gets stuck in intestines and causes a blockage. It may be time for surgery.
Constipation due to bone fragments. Your dog may have a hard time passing the bone fragments because they’re very sharp and they scrape the inside of the large intestine or rectum as they move along. This causes severe pain and may require a visit to your veterinarian.
Severe bleeding from the rectum. This is very messy and can be dangerous. It’s time for a trip to see your veterinarian.
Peritonitis. This nasty, difficult-to-treat bacterial infection of the abdomen is caused when bone fragments poke holes in your dog’s stomach or intestines. Your dog needs an emergency visit to your veterinarian because peritonitis can kill your dog.
“Talk with your veterinarian about alternatives to giving bones to your dog,” says Stamper. “There are many bone-like products made with materials that are safe for dogs to chew on.”

“Always supervise your dog with any chew product, especially one your dog hasn’t had before,” adds Stamper. “And always, if your dog ‘just isn’t acting right,’ call your veterinarian right away!”

This article appears on FDA's Consumer Updates page4, which features the latest on all FDA-regulated products.

The risks of raw meat based diets, however, are well-documented. Homemade diets and commercial BARF diets are often demonstrable unbalanced and have severe nutritional deficiencies or excesses.16-18 Dogs have been shown to acquire and shed parasitic organisms and potentially lethal infectious diseases associated with raw meat, including pathogenic strains of E. coli and Salmonella. 25-27 Many other pathogens have been identified in raw diets or raw meat ingredients, and these represent a risk not only to the dogs fed these diets but to their owners, particularly children and people with compromised immune systems. 29-30 The bones often included in such diets can cause fractured teeth and gastrointestinal diseases, including obstructed or perforated intestines, and the FDA recently warned pet owners against feeding bones to their canine companions. So with a dodgy theory behind it, no sound evidence of benefits, and clear risks, there is no justification for recommending raw meat based diets for dogs. As always, I remain open to the possibility that new evidence may emerge to document benefits from such diets that might justify the risks they present, but for now this feeding approach appears to be simply another form of CAM mythology supported only by anecdote and unsound logic.

Surely the above shall not change the mindset of those set in stone even with scientific evidence to the contrary.
All my dogs, not being fed a raw diet, seem to live to 15 & 16 yrs. of age.
I congratulate those whose animals survived on this type of diet, in spite of them.
Continued good luck and good health to your animals.

To paraphrase LF, experts are proven wrong all the time. For example, the CDC only recognizes one particular two-tier test for determining whether a person has Lyme Disease, yet even though the test is very flawed and misses many people infected with Lyme Disease. Thousands of people have suffered needlessly and the disease sometimes isn't treated until the 3rd stage, which is incurable,, because said test criteria is flawed.

Kind of reminds me of the commercial of the dumb girl and meeting a French model she met on the Internet. Hate to burst your bubble, but, not everything put out by the FDA or the CDC is always correct!

Believe me, it would certainly be easier on me to feed store bought food; a whole lot cheaper as well

My 13 year old large dog is elderly and has already outlived his breed average. Oh, in the 11years of feeding him BARF, his teeth are NOT chipped and look as good as any 2 year old dog's teeth!!!

For a scientist's opinion, I'm a wildlife and fisheries biologist (TAMU pre-vet, 1992), and I see nothing wrong with feeding a BARF diet to dogs. My opinion is that dogs are evolutionarily predisposed to eat in such a way. Dogs evolved with humans not by eating corn and wheat, rather they ate scraps, often bones and gristle. Feeding grain-based diets has only come about in the last few decades of big agribusiness.

My opinion of the FDA in this (and many) regards is that it is their job to advocate caution. If they do not, they take the heat when someone is reckless. Saying dogs will have broken teeth and intestinal perforations is a bit of a sky is falling sort of advocacy, and it's really more of a CYA for them, as in many situations. I find it absolutely hilarious that we must have all sorts of inspections and certifications to buy raw milk and organic produce, yet widespread applications of bee-killing pesticides and fungicides, as well as herbicides shown toxic to humans are allowed, all under the FDAs approval. Also don't forget about how deep the corruption of money goes in our government - it's no secret that the former VP for Monsanto is now a head at the FDA. And that's just one former Monsanto exec in our government system, there are more. Hmmm.

e.coli and other microorganisms are a risk, and I hope that owners feeding their dogs raw diets do their best to determine the integrity of the food that they choose to feed. That said, not too long ago melamine was found in packaged dog food diets, so it is a simple fact that whatever method an owner chooses to feed, in this day of agribusiness and corporate food production, there are risks with everything.

Again, this is just my opinion. I think in matters of diet for both human and pet, it is a personal choice to make an informed decision. There's so much conflicting advice out there, it is simply doing our best. I will say that dogs on the BARF diet seem much happier about their food bowls!

ETA: I'll ask my practicing vet friends how many times they've had to treat a perforated stomach or intestines, or bones stuck in the esophagus or stomach.

Know someone that stupidly fed their Dobermans "rib bones." Quite an impact on their anal glands requiring surgical removal by a vet.

And I know a dog owner whose dog became deathly ill after eating dog treats laced with melamine.

And there are more dog food recalls and deaths all the time, even so called "premier" foods, just do a google search for "dog food recall" and you'll find them. There are risks with any diet.

Alana, it's an individual decision on what to feed, and I think anyone that has taken the time to do their research and come up with their own informed opinion is allowed to it. Your opinion is really clear, I don't think any of us will expect to see raw food or bones in your dog's bowl. But I hope you will respect the opinions of those who think otherwise, and have the knowledge and experience to back it up.

For a scientist's opinion, I'm a wildlife and fisheries biologist (TAMU pre-vet, 1992), and I see nothing wrong with feeding a BARF diet to dogs. My opinion is that dogs are evolutionarily predisposed to eat in such a way. Dogs evolved with humans not by eating corn and wheat, rather they ate scraps, often bones and gristle. Feeding grain-based diets has only come about in the last few decades of big agribusiness.

Actually, from one scientist to another :-), some very recent genetic studies have showed that domestic dogs have evolved to be able to digest a much more starch heavy diet than their wolf ancestors/relatives. It was a study published in the very reputable journal Nature:
http://news.sciencemag.org/plants-animals/2013/01/diet-shaped-dog-domestication#disqus_thread

Quoting from the article:
"More surprising were genes for digesting starch. Dogs had four to 30 copies of the gene for amylase, a protein that starts the breakdown of starch in the intestine. Wolves have only two copies, one on each chromosome. As a result, that gene was 28-fold more active in dogs, the researchers found. More copies means more protein, and test-tube studies indicate that dogs should be fivefold better than wolves at digesting starch, the chief nutrient in agricultural grains such as wheat and rice. The number of copies of this gene also varies in people: Those eating high carbohydrate diets—such as the Japanese and European Americans—have more copies than people with starch-poor diets, such as the Mbuti in Africa. "We have adapted in a very similar way to the dramatic changes that happened when agriculture was developed," Axelsson says.

Dogs and wolves have the same number of copies of another gene, MGAM, which codes for maltase, another enzyme important in starch digestion. But there are four key differences between the sequence in dogs and wolves. One difference causes dogs to produce longer versions of maltase. That longer protein is also seen in herbivores, such as cows and rabbits, and omnivores, such as mouse lemurs and rats, but not in other mammals, suggesting length is important to plant-eaters. These differences make the dog maltase more efficient, the researchers report.

Axelsson thinks these results support the idea that wolves began to associate with humans who were beginning to settle down and farm. Waste dumps provided a ready source of food, albeit not meat, the usual diet. Thus early dogs that evolved more efficient starch digestion had an advantage, he notes.

The finding of these diet-related genes is "very surprising and very exciting," says Elaine Ostrander, a geneticist at the National Human Genome Research Institute in Bethesda, Maryland, who was not connected to the study. "It hints that there are a lot more [genes] to be found" involved in domestication, she adds. As more researchers compare wolf and dog DNA, Ostrander expects more genetic differences between dogs and wolves to emerge. "We are really going to figure [dog evolution] out."

Robert Wayne, an evolutionary biologist who studies dogs at the University of California, Los Angeles, but was not involved with the work, is also pleased with the study. He says he gets contacted often by pet owners wondering if dogs, like wolves, should eat primarily meat. "This [study] suggests no, dogs are different from wolves and don't need a wolflike diet," he says. "They have coevolved with humans and their diet."

Pretty neat what genetic reserch can reveal!

Thank you for clarifying that stxem.
Our domesticated dogs are a long way evovled from their wild wolf brethren.

Laughing at that last statement on research!!! And the evolution of human diets are actually better now? Hmmm...

Laughing at that last statement on research!!! And the evolution of human diets are actually better now? Hmmm...

Why laughing? The research is not on whether a grain-based or "paleo" or vegan diet is better or worse--it is simply stating the fact that we have evolved the capacity to be able to digest a multitude of foods (over the past tens of thousands of years as humans became more agrarian). And without the development of agriculture, most of us would not be here today.

Whole grains, vegetables and fruits (and meat) are a natural part of a human (and dog) diet. What is not natural is the last 50 years of processed "foods"--doritos, corn syrup, wonder bread, twinkies and what not. Given the obesity statistics and diabetes rates, personally, I'd be wiling to wager that our genes have not yet caught up with this type of diet.

Stxem, I agree with that. Just the statement caught me as funny with all the obesity today.