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promoguy
(@promoguy)
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July 30, 2009 11:02 pm  

I'm not rich and don't still don't want the government taking care of me.

"AFAIK it is illegal to pay for healthcare, it goes against the principle that everyone should have the same opportunity.:

Are you referring to my asking if you can go to a private doctor and pay? and that second part of your sentence is pure left wing rubbish.


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L
 L
(@L)
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Joined: 16 years ago
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July 30, 2009 11:08 pm  

Regarding second and third opinions you are free to find another family doctor or see a doctor at any number of walk in clinics. Government doesn't take care of you they just foot the bill. Left wing rubbish seems rather extreme, I admit there are both pros and cons to both sides, but I don't know very many people who would feel that everyone isn't entitled to the same level of health care.

I don't want to start a flame war but you can look-up the Wikipedia or Google entries on the list of standard of living/quality of life and life expectancy, and see where the USA is ranking...

I am not pro-Canada 100% I spent a lot of time in both countries, I just have to say that there are definite strong points in each way of doing things.


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East Ender
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July 30, 2009 11:23 pm  

Currently in many Eastern Caribbean island/counties, you cannot get hemodialysis if you need it but are over 65 years old. This is strictly based on your age, not on your functional abilities.


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promoguy
(@promoguy)
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July 30, 2009 11:26 pm  

"I don't want to start a flame war but you can look-up the Wikipedia or Google entries on the list of standard of living/quality of life and life expectancy, and see where the USA is ranking..."

If in fact, you exclude homicides, accidents and suicides the US is I believe number 1 or 2 on the life expectancy tables. I will have to find the citation, but you might want to consider that. Oh, and just cuz homicides are high, I'm not handing in my guns.


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L
 L
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July 30, 2009 11:31 pm  

That is interesting thanks for clarifying that, it is slightly better you are correct. Life expectancy vs health care spending was also interesting. Quality of life also.


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Bombi
(@Bombi)
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promoguy
(@promoguy)
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July 30, 2009 11:46 pm  

The blue dogs have to go home for their summer vacation. They have to meet with their constituents. Have you been on YouTube and seen some of the meetings lately. Might be an eye opener. And believe me this thing isn't a done deal. Add the fact that the left wing of the dhimmis feel let down by Waxman because of the blue dog concessions. So it ain't over till it's over.


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Paula
(@paula)
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Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 285
July 31, 2009 1:34 am  

I saw an interesting news story today where Obama's former doctor stated he felt this health care bill was a huge mistake. He also said that's why he's the former doctor...


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DUN
 DUN
(@DUN)
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July 31, 2009 1:48 am  

The subject was email from the prez.
Didn`t get it on gmail(spam filter works well)...
So, I checked my Yahoo email & there it is, a email from the President!!!

My reply:

Yo Prez, wad up?
I`ve been hearing allot about this health care issue, but let me start by saying, how come I wasn`t invited to the cop/professor beer summit?
You know I like nothing better than shooting the sheet with you over a brewski(even if it was a meeting for a racial screw up you felt this was the best way to correct your misjudgement).

To me, freedom means choice, & I don`t like the government giving the money I worked so hard from away to either corporations, banks,or lazy individuals.
I have not read the entire heath care package, but I would like a opportunity to choose when I do so.
I work very hard for my meager wealth, 6 days a week!
Instead freely distributing my tax dollars to those whom don`t produce,but still feel entitled to it, I would suggest you freely distribute my WORK ETHIC instead!


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A Davis
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July 31, 2009 1:55 am  

what we have now is definitely not working. over the past 10 years, it has been documented to have been a drain on the economy, without providing proper quality or efficiency.

as president obama says, if those who don't want to roll up their sleeves and sit down to make this thing right, would rather try to just sink the whole thing, they are not hurting him. as a federal employee, he has excellent health care.

that being said, i am making it my business to learn as much as i can. i did not know very much when i first started hearing about it, and there was a lot of rhetoric. i follow a couple of web sites to get to the bottom of statements that are very inflammatory, http://www.factcheck.org/ and http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/. the former site addresses the assertion about euthanasia and i hope those who are very concerned will read it. i also download and read documents that are pertinent.

we are living in an age where information is at our fingertips. no longer do we have to rely on people who have their own agendas to set ours.

i continue to educate myself, and i remain hopeful that the two sides can hammer out something that exists for the good of the american public at long last. this fight has been on since the truman era. it is time that people no longer have to choose between dying and paying their rent.

(edited to add this link to a brief overview of health care reform attempts pre-obama and even pre-clinton): http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/07/22/truman-gets-credit-or-blame-for-national-health-care-push/


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terry
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July 31, 2009 2:05 am  

That is a relief!
I wish that it would address the charges that some people of either a certain age or medical condition will be refused treatment if the ratio of the cost vs their life expectancy is low.
Thank you for the site.


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A Davis
(@A_Davis)
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July 31, 2009 2:12 am  

That is a relief!
I wish that it would address the charges that some people of either a certain age or medical condition will be refused treatment if the ratio of the cost vs their life expectancy is low.
Thank you for the site.

this may help:
False Euthanasia Claims
http://www.factcheck.org/2009/07/false-euthanasia-claims/

Summary

On former Sen. Fred Thompson’s radio show, former lieutenant governor of New York Betsy McCaughey said that the House’s proposed health care bill contained a provision that would institute mandatory counseling sessions telling seniors how "to do what’s in society’s best interest … and cut your life short." House Minority Leader John Boehner made a slightly more measured statement, warning that the same provision "may start us down a treacherous path toward government-encouraged euthanasia if enacted into law."

In truth, that section of the bill would require Medicare to pay for voluntary counseling sessions helping seniors to plan for end-of-life medical care, including designating a health care proxy, choosing a hospice and making decisions about life-sustaining treatment. It would not require doctors to counsel that their patients refuse medical intervention.


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DUN
 DUN
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July 31, 2009 2:26 am  

How about a check & balance system?
The more you put in, the more your entitled to!
This would give senior citizens who need the medical benefits the most(provided they paid in, & didn`t LEECH the system their whole life).
It is understandable, that some have a bump in the road sometime in their lives & may require government assistance, or those who are truly handicapped(no, being too fat to walk well should`t entitle you to a parking permit! or anything else).

These people like the rest of us, need to pick themselves up & provide for themselves & their family's!
This would hold the individual accountable for the way they lived their life.

This would encourage those to be a part, not dead weight of the health system.
It`s a incentive thing!

Remember, you can`t GIVE something away without TAKING it from someone else!


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stiphy
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July 31, 2009 3:10 am  

I have many fears of socialized anything, but healthcare in particular is the scariest.

If government is footing the bill for the health of our bodies then we give up all freedom. I can already see the day when contact sports such as football is banned because the injuries caused by it are a "drain on our socialized healthcare system." Want to eat a steak...no way, we all know that causes heart disease which increases the cost to the state. Sex without a condom...fat chance. If things aren't banned outright they will be taxed more and more. The myriad of activities that affect our health is virtually unlimited, giving government the ultimate tool to encroach into all aspects of our life once medicine is socialized.

Think this is far fetched? Look at the reasoning for the tobacco settlement which was that tobacco companies cost medicare money and therefore should have to pay millions (or is it billions of dollars). I'm no fan of tobacco companies but its the precedent that scares me. Some are already using this same logic to advocate "junk food taxes."

When you give up responsibility for something you also give up freedom, and I can't think of any more basic responsibility that I should have for myself than providing for my own health. Personally I also loathe having to subsidize the poor health habits of others. I pay $80 a month for gym membership, workout 3-4 times a week, and eat moderately well to keep myself healthy and my time in the doctor's office down. Why should I have to pay for those who aren't so disciplined?

I agree that where we are now is a HORRIBLE place...things have to be bad when American's are contemplating socialization. I am not here to say I have an answer, but I do not believe socialized medicine is the answer. It is the scariest single thing I've ever seen proposed in a free country and I hope it dies another death like it did during the Clinton years.

Sean


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Betty
(@Betty)
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Posts: 2045
July 31, 2009 11:13 am  

I liked Paula's story about Obama's former doctor and looked it up. I have one doctor in the family and a ton of RNs. And they are all definitely against this bill and worried about there jobs. Try asking some medical professionals why they think this will or won't work. They know the system the best.


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East Ender
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July 31, 2009 12:38 pm  

I think most can agree that there are things wrong with the system we have in place now. I also think that there is great disagreement about what needs fixing and how to fix it. Again, where is the dialogue? I hear this emphasis from the White House on how it is an emergency (the moral equivalent of war deal) and must be attended to immediately. Health care has been taking up a larger and larger percentage of the GNP for 20 years. It is going to take a while to sort out.

As I said before: what are people willing to give up? What must you have?


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dougtamjj
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July 31, 2009 1:29 pm  

We already have counseling for seniors with illnesses. Every time my mother has to be hospitalized the first thing they ask is if she has an advanced directive and has she signed a DNR, do not resuscitate. If she does not have one the doctors call me and my siblings, even if I am on St. Croix, to ask what are wishes are even if my mother is able to communicate her own wishes. The same thing happened with my father in law who passed away recently. He had to be intubated and the doctors asked my husband and his siblings if they wanted to take him off the ventilator. Some of them did and some of them did not. My husband brought is father a dry erase board and asked the doctors to reduce his medications enough for him to be able to understand what they were asking him. They asked him if he wanted to be taken off the vent and he wrote a big NO.

I understand the burden of keeping the elderly alive who have illnesses that will never get better and who require constant care but these are the people who payed all their lives into the system only to have the government steal the money that they payed in. These are the people who fought in our major wars and put their lives on the line to keep us free. Should our government do any less for them?

I think that America has the best health care system in the world. The poor and the illegals get free health care. Those who can not afford health care but make too much money to get free health care can go through the system of clinics and get reduced costs. I have one child who pays for her own health care through Athem that excludes maternity for $130.00 a month. I have another daughter and her husband only have catastrophic health insurance at a low cost. They pay for all their doctor visits but if something major happens their hospital cost are covered.

What needs to be addressed is the pharmaceutical companies who charge so much for the medications. They say the cost is due to research but what about the millions of dollars spent on television commercials to push the drugs to the public.

There are problems to be sure and I certainly don't have the answers. The high cost of medical insurance is a huge problem. All this needs to be addressed. I don't however believe a bunch of politicians pushing their own agendas should be the one making the decisions.


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divinggirl
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July 31, 2009 2:16 pm  

There are so many problems with health care that it needs to be researched thoroughly - not have a "solution" shoved down our throats way too quickly.

I don't have all the answers but there are three things that I know need to be addressed and can immediately reduce costs to the consumers:

1. Stop providing unlimited free health care to ILLEGAL immigrants - it would be much cheaper to provide them a ticket home (if people want to come to this country they should do it through legal channels and yes, maybe those legal channels need to be changed to).

2. Tam is 100% right about the pharmaceutical companies charging too much and the government has the power to change that if they would stop listening to the overly powerful drug lobbyists. I just read a very interesting article in Life Extension magazine (August issue) titled The Generic Drug Rip Off. Lots of good information and here is one quote: "Since the Medicare Prescription Drug Act requires the federal government to pay full retail price, pharmaceutical companies can literally name their price and receive guaranteed payment courtesy of taxpayers." The article goes on to show some of the incredible cost increases for drugs in just 2009 alone - some as much as 32.7% (for a Leukemia drug).

3. Malpractice lawsuits - we are too litigious a society these days. There needs to be recourse when someone has truly been wronged by a physician/nurse/hospital, however, the lawsuits that go on are excessive and many are unfounded. There needs to be tort reform of some type. People need to stop trying to get rich through the legal system.

That's my 2 cents.


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trw
 trw
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July 31, 2009 2:42 pm  

sounds like all they want to do is expand on medicare and medicade, big deal,country needs it,do it and be done with it, my boss does not offer insurance ,he only has BUPA for himself,which he pays 2500 a year for and is worthless until something catastrophic happens,nobody with existing insurance will lose anything, it's just another choice being offered


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trw
 trw
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July 31, 2009 3:03 pm  

and we already have socialized medicine in this country, what do you think medicare,social security and afdc are


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EngRMP
(@EngRMP)
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Posts: 470
July 31, 2009 4:16 pm  

We need someone like SailAway to come in and shed light on this topic. SailAway did a great job of summarizing the numbers associated with the "oil drilling in the US" issue. I keep hearing numbers that either don't tell the whole story, or contradict. For example, I've heard:
- 25% of healthcare dollars go to end of life issues
- 90% of healthcare dollars go to end of life issues
- 75% of healthcare dollars go to obesity issues

I'm not yet sure what numbers I'd like to see, but I'm guessing that there is a basic "back of the envelope" analysis that would be a great basis for each of the associated issues (end of life, obesity, individual responsibility, choice, affordability, taxes, socialized medicine, etc). Some things that I wonder about are:
- if everyone pays into "insurance", then doesn't that provide more funding for healthcare for everyone
- what does the distribution curve of healthcare cost vs different people look like (ie, how much healthcare does a "healthy" person need vs a diabetic, or older, or overweight) over a lifetime, and how many people fall into each of these categories.
- what is the true cost/year of healthcare for each of us
- what is the boost in GDP if everyone had "adequate" healthcare
- what are the other benefits to society if everyone has healthcare (is this similar to education - is there a huge benefit to society when everyone is educated?)
- would I be willing to pay $100/year more in taxes if I could see associated benefit to society?

On the topic of "end of life":
- I was with my father as he was dieing from stroke
- I helped to prevent his prolonged suffering
- I felt a combination and guilt and pride for many months, but ultimately felt pride that I was there to help him
- I sincerely hope that my kids will be there for me and make the call for me (I already trust that they will know, better than I will, at that time)
So, I think the "end of life" provisions are dealing with that type of issue: allow "quality of life" discussions to be part of healthcare.


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stiphy
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July 31, 2009 5:20 pm  

and we already have socialized medicine in this country, what do you think medicare,social security and afdc are

Failing social programs that are a big part of the problem, certainly not something we should look to as a model for the solution!

Sean


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trw
 trw
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July 31, 2009 5:31 pm  

gee sean what about the millions of people that rely on those social programs,what do you propose we do with them? kill them? ship them off to canada and mexico


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Lizard
(@Lizard)
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Posts: 1842
July 31, 2009 6:02 pm  

Trial Lawyers, and HMO's leave me with such a warm and fuzzy feeling regarding Health issues. Every Citizen in this country is entitled to decent health care at affordable prices. We pay for the non insured now. The ugly word in Health care today is PROFIT! So if the private sector cant do it the Gov has to step in. People that judge the value of human Life with stats make me laugh. I wonder how many of the pseudo intellects defaulted on their student loans ( one of the many Gov programs for the people) Where is the outrage there and a large majority of defaults are in the medical field.


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islandlola
(@islandlola)
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Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 694
July 31, 2009 6:31 pm  

Having lived in Canada and experienced its health care, I have to say that there are MANY advantages to their system. I, too, had same day care when I needed it, and when once I feared a recurrence of a potentially life-threatening condition, I was given premier treatment and prompt testing (I turned out to be OK, TG).

What also strikes me about Canada is the way that other norms go towards improving and maintaining good health. For instance, apparently as a result of certain government supports, fruits and vegetables in Ontario are far more affordable than in many parts of the U.S. where I've lived. Also, cooked, hot, nutritious meals were a norm even at lots of nursery schools. I know public schools in the U.S. that serve sugar-sweetened yogurt with Lucky Charms on top and call it a lunch entree. Many people at all economic levels eat better in Canada, and are healthier as a result.

Best,

Islandlola
---


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