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Limetree layoffs as of last night refining part closing ?

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vicanuck
(@vicanuck)
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@alana33 

I live within a 7 mile radius of the refinery. But, we specifically bought east of the refinery to avoid those well known problems. I can honestly say we've never been environmentally impacted by the refinery.

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Posted : June 22, 2021 8:16 am
Alana33 and daveb722 liked
vicanuck
(@vicanuck)
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@daveb722 

Oh yes...so glad to have solar. I just bought and installed a new diesel generator too.

But, we're really on our way out anyway. Only a few more years left here.

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Posted : June 22, 2021 8:22 am
janeinstx
(@janeinstx)
Trusted Member

@alana33 I live within 7 miles. I've also worked there for 11 years. No issues. 

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Posted : June 22, 2021 10:01 am
speee1dy liked
Alana33
(@alana33)
Expert

Glad you're not impacted as others were who live nearby.

Must be awful to wake up and find one's roof, cistern, water, property contaminated.

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Posted : June 22, 2021 12:57 pm
jasona liked
Gator's Mom
(@gators_mom)
Trusted Member

Environmental racism. There is a name for it. This goes back to the origins of putting an oil refinery on a predominantly black island in the Caribbean.

Just because you can't see it or smell it doesn't mean you're not affected downwind from the refinery and the dump.

 

EPA Report Proves That Black Communities More Likely to Breathe Toxic Air | Colorlines

ajph201721001_mikati 480..485 (racialawareness.info)

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Posted : June 22, 2021 3:08 pm
Alana33
(@alana33)
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speee1dy
(@speee1dy)
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i doubt the majority of whats in the beginning of  that article.

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Posted : June 23, 2021 8:57 am
Rowdy802
(@Rowdy802)
Trusted Member

I worked as part of the restart project and left on October 31st, 2020. I saw some signs that I had seen back when it was Hovensa. So, I went back to Ohio.

I am sad about this outcome, but I am glad I decided to take the best route for me and my family. I love STX, but felt I wasn't welcome there that second time around. I was previously there from 2006 until the closure in April 2012. Then got called back in September of 2019.

I didn't agree with some of the directions on the repair plans on both pressure vessels and the piping systems. Plus, before that, they didn't do a good job of asset preservation and inspect them monthly for loss of nitrogen purge, vegetation growth, damaged insulation, damaged coating, etc. A world-class facility turned into a junkyard due to la ack of due diligence and aggressive damage mechanisms. 

We need chemical sites and petrochemical sites whether we like them or not, but there is no excuse to operate in a responsible, respectful, and sensible (to the residents) way. Solar and wind production will reduce the dependency on fossil fuels energy production, but we still need to manufacture goods. No refinery? No cellphones, tablets, computers, TVs, homes, etc. 

I am proud to have been a part of it and wish them all the success in the world. I still have lots of good friends, both local and "statesiders", on the island. The local economy will benefit from the site. Can it still be done? Yes, but once they shut it down, every minute that goes by will be its downfall and lead to a catastrophic business failure. Industrial sites are only "healthy & happy" as long as they are under a lot of heat and positive pressure. The most dangerous time is during restarts and shutdowns.

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Posted : June 23, 2021 10:13 am
daveb722
(@daveb722)
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Posted by: @gators_mom

Environmental racism. There is a name for it. This goes back to the origins of putting an oil refinery on a predominantly black island in the Caribbean.

Just because you can't see it or smell it doesn't mean you're not affected downwind from the refinery and the dump.

 

EPA Report Proves That Black Communities More Likely to Breathe Toxic Air | Colorlines

ajph201721001_mikati 480..485 (racialawareness.info)

I saw a twitter posting yesterday, the account asked for one word and he would prove it was racist.  He responded to 90% of the words finding articles about how that particular word was racist.  Today everything is racist, easy to spin and honestly the word has lost much meaning.  Quite sad actually.

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Posted : June 23, 2021 10:18 am
speee1dy liked
Gator's Mom
(@gators_mom)
Trusted Member
Posted by: @daveb722
Posted by: @gators_mom

Environmental racism. There is a name for it. This goes back to the origins of putting an oil refinery on a predominantly black island in the Caribbean.

Just because you can't see it or smell it doesn't mean you're not affected downwind from the refinery and the dump.

 

EPA Report Proves That Black Communities More Likely to Breathe Toxic Air | Colorlines

ajph201721001_mikati 480..485 (racialawareness.info)

I saw a twitter posting yesterday, the account asked for one word and he would prove it was racist.  He responded to 90% of the words finding articles about how that particular word was racist.  Today everything is racist, easy to spin and honestly the word has lost much meaning.  Quite sad actually.

Everything in my lifetime has been racist and sexist - the world of the 20th century belonged to white guys. Think about it - from the hospital in which I was born that segregated white mothers from black - to the sorority I belonged to (only if she's white), to the jobs I was offered (white guys had families to care for after all). 

Welfare, food stamps, Medicaid - having women (visualized as black) prove they are poor enough to seek assistance to care for their families. Sexist, Racist.

Like the Bennington College survey - with a white guy bungee jumping in from Vermont to conduct a survey - rather than partnering with colleagues at UVI. Racist.

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Posted : June 23, 2021 10:39 am
daveb722
(@daveb722)
Trusted Member

@gators_mom Sorry but I don't find that racist, if he wants to do a survey, he's more than welcome to do one.  you project a lot in your last post. Meeting requirements to get welfare, food stamps etc are needed.  My family needed food stamps when we were younger, we got free lunches at school, I guess that due to my parents struggling, the racist system needed to verify our struggle.  You perpetuate the watering down of the term.  We can go back and forth on this, but I'll leave this post as my last about it for now because your mind is set in your beliefs and unlike mine, I've changed over the years, obviously you haven't.  Guess in your mind I'm racist and sexist, that's your choice to believe, I know who I am and that I am Not.  

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Posted : June 23, 2021 11:11 am
Gator's Mom
(@gators_mom)
Trusted Member

There is an entire system of clerks, social workers, accountants etc. earning billions of dollars in wages in the US whose work it is to determine who (mostly women) deserves social support and who doesn't. What if those same funds went directly to those needing social support without the tiers and tiers of bureaucracy?

That's the argument for family stipends and universal basic income. Have you cashed your stimulus check yet? Lucky you if you didn't qualify because selection was based solely on info from your taxes. No one came to your house to do a head count - no application - just help whether you needed it or not.

The same for universal health coverage - remove the bureaucracy and direct funds toward care.

Mine are not beliefs - I have spent the past year in academia being force fed information on diversity, equity and inclusion. Once the reality of it clicks - it's a humbling moment and cynicism wains. 

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Posted : June 23, 2021 11:43 am
jaldeborgh
(@jaldeborgh)
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Posted by: @alana33

@jaldeborgh 

So that's a "NO" when it comes to living next door to refinery?

Correct, as I would also not choose to live next door to many things…..a semiconductor factory, a pharmaceutical factory, a meat packing plant or even a grave yard.  I fully appreciate that this is in part because I can afford (within limits) to choose where I live, just as I chose to live on STX, with all it’s pro’s and con’s.

I do feel strongly that operator’s of Limetree (or any refinery) must be accountable for maintaining a safe facility as the local community is a major stakeholder in the enterprise.  I also believe, as I believe I have stated, that the technology exists today to do so.

Most industrial campuses aren’t very attractive, bring noise and often 24X7 activity that makes them incompatible with relaxed living or tranquility.  At the same time these campuses are necessary to our daily lives. 

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Posted : June 24, 2021 4:31 am
Alana33
(@alana33)
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@jaldeborgh 

Aren't you lucky not to be impacted.

Takes a special kind of person not to be concerned about those not as fortunate.

 

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Posted : June 24, 2021 5:12 am
CruzanIron
(@cruzaniron)
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Permissible Exposure Limit (PEL)

What Does Permissible Exposure Limit (PEL) Mean?

Permissible exposure limit (PEL) is the legal limit in the U.S. for maximum concentration of any chemical in the air to which a worker may be exposed continuously for eight hours without any danger to health and safety. PEL is established by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA).

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Posted : June 24, 2021 7:06 am
janeinstx liked
jaldeborgh
(@jaldeborgh)
Advanced Member
Posted by: @alana33

@jaldeborgh 

Aren't you lucky not to be impacted.

Takes a special kind of person not to be concerned about those not as fortunate.

 

I think your missing the point.  The environmental issues of the refinery were not caused by Limetree they are legacy issues so penalizing the community today for the sins of the past isn’t constructive.  If you want to help all people on STX run the refinery properly and work to build bridges between the community and the company.  Limetree is just a bunch of island residents trying to work as a team to accomplish something positive in the world.

As for my not being concerned about the less fortunate, all I can say is you don’t know me nor what I’ve contributed to society over my 64+ years, I’m not your enemy.

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Posted : June 24, 2021 8:36 am
Stxdreaming1
(@stxdreaming1)
Advanced Member
Posted by: @vicanuck

@daveb722 

The VI Government is in much worse shape today then when Hovensa closed despite what Bryan claims. But, a bankruptcy is a process to shed debt so I'm sure EIG Energy has a plan to manage the assets through the process. With 3 billion spent to modernize and upgrade, I don't think the refinery is going to close and will emerge in a much better position with substantially less debt.

I believe I posted, or if I didn't, I read an article late last year stating BP was ready to walk away as the production levels were/are nowhere near the contracted levels. Even though $3 billion was spent to modernize etc, that is pennies to a corporation such as BP. The writing was on the wall. Now if someone else comes in and takes over, then maybe you could be right. 

ARTICLE HERE

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Posted : June 24, 2021 4:47 pm
rewired
(@rewired)
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Posted by: @alana33

https://stthomassource.com/content/2021/06/22/survey-organizers-say-early-data-shows-widespread-health-impacts-from-limetree/

Interesting that the article noted: "Many continued to smell noxious gases weeks after the EPA shut the refinery down..."

Wouldn't this point to another source (possibly an additional one) for the 'noxious gases'? 

I also found this related sorry interesting:

https://anthropology-news.org/articles/after-oil/

Dr. Bond might be a good man (I don't know him), but I think his bio at the end of the article makes it clear he's an environmental justice warrior. Any results of the survey would likely be written from this perspective. 

I'm not trying to disparage the writers or results, only point out that they can hardly be called 'unbiased'.

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Posted : June 24, 2021 8:04 pm
TN_Travelers
(@tn-travelers)
Advanced Member

I doubt that it will reopen.

There is already interest in reopening the refineries on Aruba, Curacao and Trinidad - none of which would be under EPA control.  Together they can match the capacity of Limetree.

BP needs to get the crude from the Guyana oil field refined and although St Croix was 1st choice - there are other options that will be more attractive now.

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Posted : June 25, 2021 11:08 am
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stcmike
(@stcmike)
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Any long term plant closing will have a severe impact to the local economy. I would b e very careful buying any real estate at this time

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Posted : June 25, 2021 7:11 pm
Gator's Mom
(@gators_mom)
Trusted Member

If real estate values and sales soared throughout the US, including the USVI, during a worldwide pandemic and recession - why would closing the refinery have severe impact on the STX real estate market?  

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Posted : June 26, 2021 8:58 am
stcmike
(@stcmike)
Advanced Member

@gators_mom.  See what happened to St. croix real estate values when the previous owners closed.   Regarding US pandemic real estate pricing. Much of that was from people fleeing cities and moving to the suburbs. The price increase was a simple function of supply and demand. If people are losing their jobs at Limetree people will leave the island and the supply will increase as demand is reduced causing a weakness in real estate prices.

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Posted : June 26, 2021 10:39 am
Alana33
(@alana33)
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rewired
(@rewired)
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Posted by: @alana33

https://stthomassource.com/content/2021/06/26/crucians-ask-epa-to-manage-limetree-closure-as-agency-withdraws-monitors/

I agree that the EPA (as well as the VI government) should continue to monitor throughout the shutdown please of refinery operations. The air quality monitoring sites are already in place and it shouldn't be an issue for them to continue to monitor for the next few months.

Although I realize that the group who wrote the letter (and the survey mentioned earlier in the discussion) are NOT experts in refinery operations or remediation, it would be interesting to hear from them what should be 'next' for the site and the laid off workers. 

It's one thing to rail against something you don't like and quite another thing to present a more beneficial alternative.

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Posted : June 26, 2021 4:03 pm
Gator's Mom
(@gators_mom)
Trusted Member
Posted by: @stcmike

@gators_mom.  See what happened to St. croix real estate values when the previous owners closed.   Regarding US pandemic real estate pricing. Much of that was from people fleeing cities and moving to the suburbs. The price increase was a simple function of supply and demand. If people are losing their jobs at Limetree people will leave the island and the supply will increase as demand is reduced causing a weakness in real estate prices.

I don't think the US real estate market boom is caused by those fleeing cities and moving to suburbs. I suspect low interest rates is a serious contributor and a moritorium on student loans helped too. Even with soaring home prices, rental prices continue rise even quicker. 

The world has changed drastically since 2012 when Hovensa left - even in the VI. As far as I'm aware, there wasn't a great surge in home purchases and permanent family relocations accompanying the reopening of the refinery. 

As I look out  my window, virtually all the homes are owned by older couples who have reached or are approaching retirement. Many have purchased since Maria. STX is becoming an alternative to STJ for spacious island living and an alternative to FL's culture or lack there of.    

It's not about jobs anymore.

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Posted : June 26, 2021 4:36 pm
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