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senate and abr deal?

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Rowdy802
(@Rowdy802)
Trusted Member

I've said this before. All the residents and the VI Government need to do is look at the history and situation that is going on with the CORCO site in Puerto Rico. It closed in 1984, and still hasn't been completely demolished and lawsuits are the order of the day. Even when the circumstances were not the same, it does give and idea of what can happen with HOVENSA.

That is not even half of it. What could be worse are the implications of this decision and how it will reflect on St. Croix's economy. The able/certified/qualified residents left will have to look for a source of income. What choice do they have? Start from scratch doing something else? For many, that is not an option.

The VI Government now, instead of getting less benefits, get zero. Much worse, they need to cough of money to fight HOVENSA, PDVSA, and Hess in court. HOVENSA is broke, PDVSA is in serious trouble, and Hess, well, they couldn't care less. Conoco-Phillips and Exxon have been unsuccessful for many years now fighting PDVSA and the Venezuelan Govt. Guess that gives you a glimpse into how successful the VI Govt. could be.

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Posted : December 20, 2014 3:27 pm
CruzanIron
(@cruzaniron)
Expert

The able/certified/qualified residents left will have to look for a source of income. What choice do they have? Start from scratch doing something else? For many, that is not an option.

The VI Government now, instead of getting less benefits, get zero.

I'll be leaving. Already started sending out my resume. I also run a side business from my house that is taxable. What I pay in taxes pays for one government employee. Basically I take what the legislature has done as a slap in the face. Well, they can KMA because I'm not going to stay here any longer and watch this island go down the toilet.

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Posted : December 20, 2014 6:14 pm
Novanut
(@novanut)
Trusted Member

Don't let the door hit you in the behind when you leave. Failing to adapt means failing to appreciate what the island means to you and others. Happy sailing!

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Posted : December 21, 2014 1:42 am
MissJustice
(@MissJustice)
Trusted Member

Finally the senate listened to their legal counsel. The deal was legally flawed.
PLAN B
We have recourse:
1. Hovensa declares bankruptcy and we become the owners and sell it ourselves to a buyer who has money.
2. Bankruptcy and we hire a contractor to manage the refinery and storage, while we use the plant for energy production.
3. We use the storage under eminent domain.
4. We start charging the real property tax of $50 million per year.
5. We use the plant as a transshipment port among other uses.

I wish the senate had listened to the legal counsel for diageo.
I wish we had listened to legal counsel for the 4th agreement. We wouldn't be extorted for fuel had we taken note of the soft requirement for Hivensa to provide fuel until 2019.

A watershed moment in the VI. A turning point in making balanced deals.

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Posted : December 21, 2014 10:11 am
CruzanIron
(@cruzaniron)
Expert

Don't let the door hit you in the behind when you leave. Failing to adapt means failing to appreciate what the island means to you and others. Happy sailing!

Had to laugh. Shame on me for failing to adapt to not having a job, not finding a job here in the field that I love (which is no longer available here) and shame on me for having to leave my birthplace and home for over 50 years.

No, the door won't hit me on the behind. All of my children, my siblings and parents, who were also all born here, have already left. They opened new doors and so will I.

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Posted : December 21, 2014 10:16 am
CruzanIron
(@cruzaniron)
Expert

Finally the senate listened to their legal counsel. The deal was legally flawed.
PLAN B
We have recourse:
1. Hovensa declares bankruptcy and we become the owners and sell it ourselves to a buyer who has money.
2. Bankruptcy and we hire a contractor to manage the refinery and storage, while we use the plant for energy production.
3. We use the storage under eminent domain.
4. We start charging the real property tax of $50 million per year.
5. We use the plant as a transshipment port among other uses.

I wish the senate had listened to the legal counsel for diageo.
I wish we had listened to legal counsel for the 4th agreement. We wouldn't be extorted for fuel had we taken note of the soft requirement for Hivensa to provide fuel until 2019.

A watershed moment in the VI. A turning point in making balanced deals.

1) Just because they declare bankruptcy will not make the GVI automatic owners. Guess what - there are already liens against the property that have first priority ahead of the GVI.
2) see #1
3) You have to pay fair market value for eminent domain. But you are smart enough to know that. And GVI doesn't have the money.
4) Yes, you can do that. The first bill will be disputed in court. Look at how long the last valuation dispute took in the courts. 10 years, wasn't it?
5) Again, the GVI does not have the money to CONVERT the docks to dry cargo usage. You have ONE roro dock there. And where are you gong to put the containers? The docks are on reclaimed land, but there isn't enough acreage. Besides, you have that unused new molasses dock - the dock to nowhere - that still remains unused to this day. Plenty of acreage to ground containers, power, and a good road. Why even talk about making a new container port when the new molasses dock is unused?

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Posted : December 21, 2014 10:25 am
OldTart
(@the-oldtart)
Expert

Had to laugh. Shame on me for failing to adapt to not having a job, not finding a job here in the field that I love (which is no longer available here) and shame on me for having to leave my birthplace and home for over 50 years.

No, the door won't hit me on the behind. All of my children, my siblings and parents, who were also all born here, have already left. They opened new doors and so will I.

Good luck to you and every good wish for finding a new niche! 😀

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Posted : December 21, 2014 11:43 am
Rowdy802
(@Rowdy802)
Trusted Member

We have recourse:
1. Hovensa declares bankruptcy and we become the owners and sell it ourselves to a buyer who has money

Lazard is an expert broker in the industry and struggled to find buyers. I am not saying it is impossible, but wouldn't be optimistic that the VI Government could find one. The refinery needs a "heavy hitter", and none, so far, are interested.

Just because HOVENSA goes bankrupt doesn't mean that the government "become" owners. There is no such a thing.

I'll be leaving. Already started sending out my resume. I also run a side business from my house that is taxable. What I pay in taxes pays for one government employee. Basically I take what the legislature has done as a slap in the face. Well, they can KMA because I'm not going to stay here any longer and watch this island go down the toilet.

I could see the writing on the wall and left a few weeks ago. I accepted a long term contract with a well known contractor in the USA and landed at a refinery in good standing. I will keep my things in storage, for now, and will wait a bit longer before shipping them.

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Posted : December 21, 2014 10:32 pm
Scubadoo
(@Scubadoo)
Trusted Member

Finally the senate listened to their legal counsel. The deal was legally flawed.
PLAN B
We have recourse:
1. Hovensa declares bankruptcy and we become the owners and sell it ourselves to a buyer who has money.
2. Bankruptcy and we hire a contractor to manage the refinery and storage, while we use the plant for energy production.
3. We use the storage under eminent domain.
4. We start charging the real property tax of $50 million per year.
5. We use the plant as a transshipment port among other uses.

I wish the senate had listened to the legal counsel for diageo.
I wish we had listened to legal counsel for the 4th agreement. We wouldn't be extorted for fuel had we taken note of the soft requirement for Hivensa to provide fuel until 2019.

A watershed moment in the VI. A turning point in making balanced deals.

1) Just because they declare bankruptcy will not make the GVI automatic owners. Guess what - there are already liens against the property that have first priority ahead of the GVI.
2) see #1
3) You have to pay fair market value for eminent domain. But you are smart enough to know that. And GVI doesn't have the money.
4) Yes, you can do that. The first bill will be disputed in court. Look at how long the last valuation dispute took in the courts. 10 years, wasn't it?
5) Again, the GVI does not have the money to CONVERT the docks to dry cargo usage. You have ONE roro dock there. And where are you gong to put the containers? The docks are on reclaimed land, but there isn't enough acreage. Besides, you have that unused new molasses dock - the dock to nowhere - that still remains unused to this day. Plenty of acreage to ground containers, power, and a good road. Why even talk about making a new container port when the new molasses dock is unused?

Hmmm, property/assets will be divied up by the courts under bankruptcy to the creditors. But if Hovensa owes back taxes to GVI (tax lien) then GVI would get a piece, and perhaps the whole property depending on how the tax laws are written? If they don't owe back taxes now what happens if the GVI levies full taxes now or at the next re-assessment at current rates for fair market value and they don't pay up?

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Posted : December 22, 2014 4:20 am
CruzanIron
(@cruzaniron)
Expert

The GVI does not sell property with unpaid taxes until 10 years after the first default.
Look at the data from the last auction scam the GVI ran for evidence of that.

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Posted : December 22, 2014 10:06 am
CruzanIron
(@cruzaniron)
Expert

If they don't owe back taxes now what happens if the GVI levies full taxes now or at the next re-assessment at current rates for fair market value and they don't pay up?

What happens when the GVI loses in court and has to reimburse the $200 million tax overpayment?

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Posted : December 22, 2014 10:08 am
Alana33
(@alana33)
Expert

What will happen? The Virgin Islands already has massive debt.
If they don't have the ability to pay what they owe now, what could Hovensa do to collect, if there was a judgement in their favor after years or possibly decades of litigation? You can't get blood from stone.

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Posted : December 22, 2014 10:52 am
CruzanIron
(@cruzaniron)
Expert

What will happen? Exactly as you were told (or was interpreted as a threat) - nothing.
A rusting landscape, hundreds of fewer jobs, and even less tax revenue.

You got what you asked for. Enjoy it.

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Posted : December 22, 2014 11:33 am
IslandHops
(@IslandHops)
Trusted Member

Rumor is Monarch will be the white knight, with ties to Malone. ABR was voted down in order to put a cloud over DeJong's legacy, and to now make Mapp look good with a plan B announcement after new years, and to curry relationships between the senators and the new king. Why else would a bunch of senators on STT all decide to vote nae when they don't really give a rats backside about STX. Speculation, but Malone must have a ton of dirt on many of them. It's all politics, however the effect is to dissuade new ventures from even considering the VI as a place to do business. Of course this is just an extrapolation of what is on the current rumor mill.

Remaining question is will Hovensa even negotiate with Monarch after being hosed on the ABR deal. I feel disappointment for the ABR principals that have put in all the work without even a chance of pulling this off. It seems more that the political elite are overriding the business market forces and deciding who they want to do business with regardless of a deal being in place.

All conjecture of course. You can't script this stuff.

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Posted : December 22, 2014 12:02 pm
CruzanIron
(@cruzaniron)
Expert

mill.

Remaining question is will Hovensa even negotiate with Monarch after being hosed on the ABR deal.

No, they made it clear that there was no one else. It's all over.

Besides, Monarch doesn't have any money either.

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Posted : December 22, 2014 12:37 pm
vicanuck
(@vicanuck)
Expert

I don't think the end of this story has been written yet either. However, I am personally doubtful that Monarch will be in the picture. Of course, I could always be wrong. In any case, I'm not going anywhere.

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Posted : December 22, 2014 1:05 pm
Rowdy802
(@Rowdy802)
Trusted Member

I don't think the end of this story has been written yet either. However, I am personally doubtful that Monarch will be in the picture. Of course, I could always be wrong. In any case, I'm not going anywhere.

Agreed... Though, in my case, I had no choice and had to leave.. Most of my stuff I stayed behind in "case of emergency"... IMHO, only a miracle can save this... I guess I remain hopeful until all is exhausted...

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Posted : December 22, 2014 1:24 pm
singlefin
(@singlefin)
Trusted Member

So thats it for ABR?
No way for them to revise their proposal?
No way to bring it to another vote after the new year?

Things seemed pretty hopeful right before the final vote.

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Posted : December 22, 2014 3:53 pm
ms411
(@ms411)
Expert

The finance committee voted in favor so to get it out of committee and allow all senators to vote. Political strategy. Not necessarily how senate felt about the deal.

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Posted : December 22, 2014 4:02 pm
CruzanIron
(@cruzaniron)
Expert

So thats it for ABR?
No way for them to revise their proposal?
No way to bring it to another vote after the new year?

Things seemed pretty hopeful right before the final vote.

Nope. They said this was the only offer. Shut down operations
have already started.

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Posted : December 22, 2014 5:42 pm
longhorn
(@longhorn)
Advanced Member

I am unclear as to why anyone would enter into a business transaction with the G.VI for the refinery, assuming they get the business outright in a bankruptcy (possibly years from now when the refinery has further deteriorated) or why anyone who would buy a refinery outside of the Continental US (where 8 closed facilities remain dormant). Those refineries have access to natural gas and sweet crude and the wholesale price off the rack for regular is less than $1.70/gallon. This refinery is closed and the deal is dead.

Lazard attempted to sell the refinery and only one company put in an offer. There is no interest in the refinery and the deal is dead...

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Posted : December 22, 2014 11:53 pm
MissJustice
(@MissJustice)
Trusted Member

Enjoying the falling gas prices on STX.....
Independent operator getting fuel elsewhere..... Extortion is expensive.
Extortion of fuel was used to ink the 4th extension.
DeJongh's legacy is what it is: bad deals.
If Hovensa stalls us in bankruptcy then they still have to pay EPA for the clean up.
DeJongh was not afraid to take Big Bank of America to court for what is subjective poor representation.
Why should he be afraid to take little Hovensa, relatively speaking?
Eminent domain applies and is not bad when you subtract the $200 million independent auditors say that Hovensa owes us, minus $50 million per year in actual property tax.
It's a win win situation. Cut our losses.
Good riddance deJongh and Hovensa.

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Posted : December 23, 2014 10:55 am
vicanuck
(@vicanuck)
Expert

Somehow I don't think we've heard the last of a sale of Hovensa. Stay tuned.

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Posted : December 23, 2014 11:11 am
CruzanIron
(@cruzaniron)
Expert

If Hovensa stalls us in bankruptcy then they still have to pay EPA for the clean up.

Pleas explain what you mean when you say this. I'm not aware of any money that Hovensa owes to the EPA.

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Posted : December 23, 2014 11:38 am
CruzanIron
(@cruzaniron)
Expert

Eminent domain applies and is not bad when you subtract the $200 million independent auditors say that Hovensa owes us,

No, the IRB auditors say that Hovensa owes that. It was Hovensa's independent auditors that confirmed that the VI owes Hovensa $200 million,

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Posted : December 23, 2014 11:40 am
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