Notifications
Clear all

You People!

Page 1 / 5
 

ibutcherii
(@ibutcherii)
Advanced Member
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 27
June 22, 2011 3:30 pm  

Now, I know that I am Old School, because of my time spent growing up in America during the 50's and 60's, and what I know and have experienced, is that when someone said to you, You People, that they were referring to the ethnic group that you represent. Well, the fact that I am Black, and the remark was made in a tone, that the Black locals were responsible for the beach area being filthy dirty.

At the public meeting Tues. evening, @eat cane bay, Cane Bay, St. Croix, to introduce the owner's plans to petition to have the road changed and rerouted away from the beach area. I happened to be standing near, who turned out to be the owner of the Dive Shop there, and he began instigating in favor of the change.

I asked him if he owned his business, what I was trying to ask if he owned the property, but he began telling me about how for the past 20+ years he has been clean up behind You People.

I then asked what did he mean by you people, he then repeated about how he was sick and tired of having to spent time and money cleaning up behind You People and then told me, F**K You, in front of witnesses.

Now to me, the proud owner of the Cane Bay Dive Shop is a perfect example of the kind of attitude that is planned for this and other areas here on St. Croix.

The reasoning for the road change can be addressed, just by widening the road.

What is most disturbing is that the owner, who once ran for high office here used the slogan, "I grieve for the People of the Virgin Islands".

Now, the proud owner of the Cane Bay Dive Shop, What is my Recourse?

Ivan Butcher II
St.Croix


Quote
STXoldie
(@STXoldie)
Advanced Member
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 113
June 22, 2011 4:07 pm  

The owner of the property is Warren Mosler; the guy from the dive shop rents space.

I don't think anyone realized just how much of St Croix Mosler owns but perhaps we need to pay attention before he owns the majority of the Island.


ReplyQuote
Jumbie
(@ohiojumbie-2)
Trusted Member
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 723
June 22, 2011 6:36 pm  

The owner of the dive shop will never win an award on being polite. He can be very rude and obnoxious. By some people's accounts he is this way a lot of the time.. He acts if Cane Bay Beach & boat ramp is only for the Dive Shop and makes a big deal of making it known how much trash he has to clean up that has been left behind by people other than himself or I guess "you people".

STXoldie is correct - Mosler owns a lot of property on this island and who knows how much more he's trying to buy. With a seemingly endless supply of $$, he can buy just about anything he wants, land or otherwise.

Jumbie-STX


ReplyQuote
ibutcherii
(@ibutcherii)
Advanced Member
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 27
June 22, 2011 7:27 pm  

He is their Loose Lip, imagine what is being said behind close doors.

He chose a public venue to be Disrespectful, and I am choosing the Media to expose
the kind of individual he is and represents.

As a Teacher and an Elder, it is important that I set a positive example.

My messages is world-wide, and he has exposed the need for scrutiny, if nothing else.

Investors will not be rushing into a project which is being rejected by the community.


ReplyQuote
Neil
 Neil
(@Neil)
Trusted Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 988
June 22, 2011 9:42 pm  

He is their Loose Lip, imagine what is being said behind close doors.

He chose a public venue to be Disrespectful, and I am choosing the Media to expose
the kind of individual he is and represents.

As a Teacher and an Elder, it is important that I set a positive example.

My messages is world-wide, and he has exposed the need for scrutiny, if nothing else.

Investors will not be rushing into a project which is being rejected by the community.

It is one thing to call out the diveshop owner for dissrespectful behavior. (And indeed, he has that reputation). But your assumption that "because the diveshop owner is dissrespectful, so must be the property owner" --is just as bad. As a teacher and elder, you should know that.

I believe the community thinks something should be done. Nobody in their right mind is for the status quo in that area.
The issue isn't "change vs do nothing." It's "what changes can we agree on that would be good for everyone."
Let's not let the politics of "us vs them" and a few dopes derail the discussion.


ReplyQuote
ibutcherii
(@ibutcherii)
Advanced Member
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 27
June 22, 2011 10:51 pm  

You quoating me and you interpreting what I wrote are of two different perspectives.

I never wrote that the owner was of the same racial mindset of the leasee of his property.

But, I have questioned the owners motives, since he was the one who campaigned here with the slogan,

"He grieves for the people of the Virgin Island".

I am experienced enough to know, if it acts, walks and talks like a Racist, It is What It Is.

He knew exactly who and what he was referring to when he said, You People!

This man met me swimming there. I personally go to the beach, swim and I leave the beach as I find it. I have been at the fore-front addressing the issues of dumping and littering here in the Virgin Islands.

It is obvious, I was stereotyped and judged for being Black, in his eyes.

Leave Only Your Footprints : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCsF8ICu3iA

I also think you maybe missing the point to what is happening. The owner wants to change the road, which in essence would hamper and discourage local access to the beach, in effect privatizing the beach. The owner of the Cane Bay Dive Shop is leasing and he is in favor of the road change, which will prevent the You People from dirtying up the beach. There were engineers there that felt widening the road would solve the safety issues pointed out.


ReplyQuote
Neil
 Neil
(@Neil)
Trusted Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 988
June 23, 2011 12:01 pm  

You quoating me and you interpreting what I wrote are of two different perspectives.
I never wrote that the owner was of the same racial mindset of the leasee of his property.
But, I have questioned the owners motives, since he was the one who campaigned here with the slogan,
"He grieves for the people of the Virgin Island".
I am experienced enough to know, if it acts, walks and talks like a Racist, It is What It Is.
He knew exactly who and what he was referring to when he said, You People!
This man met me swimming there. I personally go to the beach, swim and I leave the beach as I find it. I have been at the fore-front addressing the issues of dumping and littering here in the Virgin Islands.
It is obvious, I was stereotyped and judged for being Black, in his eyes.
I also think you maybe missing the point to what is happening. The owner wants to change the road, which in essence would hamper and discourage local access to the beach, in effect privatizing the beach. The owner of the Cane Bay Dive Shop is leasing and he is in favor of the road change, which will prevent the You People from dirtying up the beach. There were engineers there that felt widening the road would solve the safety issues pointed out.

You never explicitly say the owner and leasee was of the same mindset, but admit it, you strongly implied it when you wrote:

He is their Loose Lip, imagine what is being said behind close doors.

I do not challenge your point of view on the leasee. But you set yourself up as "a teacher and elder who wants to set a positive example."

A teacher and elder would not publicly jump to conclusions about one person based on another's behavior. That's all I'm saying.

AS to the road project, I fail to see how re-routing the road to provide BETTER parking, and safer parking, while enlarging the beach would "discourage" beach access. Right now beach access is VERY discouraged on any given Sunday when the area is overwhelmed. The flooded road and mud doesn't help. As to widening the road... that would not solve other related problems, such as, lack of bathrooms. The area needs more than just some additional asphalt. While the proposal may not be the best solution, at least the owner has tried to address the problem, which is more than I can say for the govt.


ReplyQuote
Linda J
(@Linda_J)
Expert
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 3919
June 23, 2011 12:41 pm  

Let me add that the owners of Eat @ Cane Bay do send out employees every day to pick up beach trash. I appreciate this as a citizen, but also realize it is a good business decision for them.


ReplyQuote
ibutcherii
(@ibutcherii)
Advanced Member
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 27
June 23, 2011 12:54 pm  

I have also been criticized for not cussing and responding to him in a more forceful manner.

There is the old saying, Birds of a Feather Flock Together, so where was the property owner, who is a well-known friendly person; who grieves for the people of the Virgin Islands, when the developer stumbled through his presentation.

To change the road changes the path of easement, which increases the distance for public access, thus giving the owner more control to beach access.

Or am I mistaken, Will these improvements belong to the people of the Virgin Islands?


ReplyQuote
SunnyCaribe
(@SunnyCaribe)
Advanced Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 495
June 23, 2011 1:01 pm  

Hi Ivan, can you clarify who was at the meeting and who said what?

The owner of the dive shop is Hal Rosbach and the owner of much of the land in the area is Warren Mosler. Both are widely regarded as assholes, but it's important to this discussion to attribute their comments correctly.


ReplyQuote
ibutcherii
(@ibutcherii)
Advanced Member
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 27
June 23, 2011 2:06 pm  

I received this in response to You People!

Last night there was a community meeting and I write about my experience there and that of a friend. The two outcomes were vastly different, come visit.

www.humanitysquared.blogspot.com

Fondly,
Sheelagh


ReplyQuote
Cruz
 Cruz
(@Cruz)
Advanced Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 424
June 23, 2011 2:37 pm  

AS to the road project, I fail to see how re-routing the road to provide BETTER parking, and safer parking, while enlarging the beach would "discourage" beach access. Right now beach access is VERY discouraged on any given Sunday when the area is overwhelmed. The flooded road and mud doesn't help. As to widening the road... that would not solve other related problems, such as, lack of bathrooms. The area needs more than just some additional asphalt. While the proposal may not be the best solution, at least the owner has tried to address the problem, which is more than I can say for the govt.

*-) If you believe that, then I've got a bridge to sell you.


ReplyQuote
STXoldie
(@STXoldie)
Advanced Member
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 113
June 23, 2011 3:45 pm  

Neil is the only person I know of who is in favor of this project


ReplyQuote
Hiya!
(@Hiya!)
Trusted Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 727
June 23, 2011 3:54 pm  

How in the world could you know that?

I don't avoid North Shore because of the roads but because of the crime and music that's always way too loud.


ReplyQuote
IslandHops
(@IslandHops)
Trusted Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 929
June 23, 2011 7:23 pm  

The only time (knock on wood) that I've been a victim of crime on this island was on a pre-move trip. We had some time to kill and decided to stop by Cane Bay beach for a swim. It was a busy day and we had to park way up the east end of the beach. In the 15mins it took to take a dip someone broke into the rental car and removed wallet, cellphone, camera from the locked glove box. There were plenty of people around but 'no one saw nothing' (yea right). Probably figured that ripping off a couple of tourists was no big deal - trouble was I wasn't just a tourist, but a pending resident, tax payer, land owner, productive member of our society. The police couldn't give a rats arse and I had to go all the way to basin triangle just to file a report (waste of time). It certainly changed my opinion of Cane Bay. Sure, you can argue that I should have known better and left the wallet, cell, camera behind when going to the beach, but what sort of picture does that paint of our island. When I do go to Cane Bay from time to time I won't even stop unless I can park close to the middle of the action. Any improvement to the parking and beach access would be good.

The topic of the post though is "You People". I'm intolerant of racism, but I take issue at the implied connection between operator and owner. Mr. Butcher, I find your posts are a little confusing and jump from commenting on one person to the other, without clarity. This can lead to the impression that you are implying that both are racist, while only the owner has taken that stance against you, albeit in a reprehensible public manner. According to your summation he obviously acted as a total dick, in a highly charged public forum. Unacceptable behaviour without a doubt.

As far as trash is concerned, this is also not a racial issue. It is an educational and behavioural one. One of my many volunteer efforts involve cleanups. After a hard day picking up other peoples roadside trash it pains me to no end to see more of it deposited within only a day or two. So instead of pointing fingers why don't we work together to come up with suggestions as to how to address the root cause of the problem?

At the end of the day, whether born here or not, we are all equal members of this community and subject to the same issues and concerns. Lets solve them together. 😎


ReplyQuote
ibutcherii
(@ibutcherii)
Advanced Member
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 27
June 23, 2011 9:03 pm  

Islandshops

The owner has to be aware of this character's reputation.

Just how I was being judged; You are judged by the company you keep.

My statement is inferring and referencing those that he associates with, who are of the same mindset.


ReplyQuote
Hiya!
(@Hiya!)
Trusted Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 727
June 23, 2011 9:28 pm  

If you are judged by the company you have to "work" for we are all doomed. Business is business. Business is separate from your personal life. We all have to deal with people at work that we would never deal with in real life. Your logic is faulty.


ReplyQuote
ibutcherii
(@ibutcherii)
Advanced Member
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 27
June 23, 2011 11:09 pm  

Hiya

I said nothing about who has to work for him, or anyone else, being of the same racist mindset, that would be prejudice.

My point, prior to the town hall meeting, there had to have been meetings before then, where he has to have expressed his position, to
the point, where he feels so embolden and entitled to express himself in public.

I clearly separated the two, the owner of the property and the dive shop owner, in the last two lines of my statement:

What is most disturbing is that the owner, who once ran for high office here used the slogan, "I grieve for the People of the Virgin Islands".

Now, the proud owner of the Cane Bay Dive Shop, What is my Recourse?

I can not fault those who see this as an improvement, because they have also condemned the dive shop owner's attitude.

I have issue with what has transpired and the implications of a hidden agenda.

Who is to say once the changes have been made, that a new owner of the property would not take advantage of the ability to privatize Cane Bay Beach.


ReplyQuote
Ms Information
(@Ms_Information)
Advanced Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 411
June 24, 2011 2:18 am  

You quoating me and you interpreting what I wrote are of two different perspectives.
I never wrote that the owner was of the same racial mindset of the leasee of his property.
But, I have questioned the owners motives, since he was the one who campaigned here with the slogan,
"He grieves for the people of the Virgin Island".
I am experienced enough to know, if it acts, walks and talks like a Racist, It is What It Is.
He knew exactly who and what he was referring to when he said, You People!
This man met me swimming there. I personally go to the beach, swim and I leave the beach as I find it. I have been at the fore-front addressing the issues of dumping and littering here in the Virgin Islands.
It is obvious, I was stereotyped and judged for being Black, in his eyes.
I also think you maybe missing the point to what is happening. The owner wants to change the road, which in essence would hamper and discourage local access to the beach, in effect privatizing the beach. The owner of the Cane Bay Dive Shop is leasing and he is in favor of the road change, which will prevent the You People from dirtying up the beach. There were engineers there that felt widening the road would solve the safety issues pointed out.

You never explicitly say the owner and leasee was of the same mindset, but admit it, you strongly implied it when you wrote:

He is their Loose Lip, imagine what is being said behind close doors.

I do not challenge your point of view on the leasee. But you set yourself up as "a teacher and elder who wants to set a positive example."

A teacher and elder would not publicly jump to conclusions about one person based on another's behavior. That's all I'm saying.

AS to the road project, I fail to see how re-routing the road to provide BETTER parking, and safer parking, while enlarging the beach would "discourage" beach access. Right now beach access is VERY discouraged on any given Sunday when the area is overwhelmed. The flooded road and mud doesn't help. As to widening the road... that would not solve other related problems, such as, lack of bathrooms. The area needs more than just some additional asphalt. While the proposal may not be the best solution, at least the owner has tried to address the problem, which is more than I can say for the govt.

Neil
I have noticed that you have been the "lone voice" defending the Cane Bay road changes. So, please try to explain why you feel so strongly about this issue. I am not an innocent, and neither are you. You obviously have an agenda. What is it? Be honest...it helps all of us to make a decision.

What is your 'iron in the fire"...?


ReplyQuote
poorthang
(@poorthang)
Advanced Member
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 312
June 24, 2011 2:27 am  

ibutcherii........Is what he said true ???


ReplyQuote
Neil
 Neil
(@Neil)
Trusted Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 988
June 24, 2011 12:55 pm  

Neil
I have noticed that you have been the "lone voice" defending the Cane Bay road changes. So, please try to explain why you feel so strongly about this issue. I am not an innocent, and neither are you. You obviously have an agenda. What is it? Be honest...it helps all of us to make a decision.

What is your 'iron in the fire"...?

It's a fair question.

Unlike most other people up here, my screenname is my first name, and I'm known by a number of posters here. Not hiding behind anonymity.

As I've mentioned in other posts, I have never met Mosler. I am not a developer and don't own property in that area.
I live about 8 minutes from Cane Bay, and go there often. I know who the diveshop owner is, but never done more than rent air from him.

My interest is like many of yours... I want to see our island improve.

In previous posts I've said I'm not saying that THIS particular proposal is the BEST proposal. Just saying it shouldn't be dismissed. It has many good ideas, and there is a serious problem in CB.

My real "iron in the fire" gets heated by those who knee-jerk oppose reasonable proposals, rather than intelligently discuss and try to improve them.

My problem with the OP of this thread (Butcher) is that this self-described "elder and teacher" is using the internet to call someone a racist, and by association, the person's landlord. That certainly seems over the line, and once again, I'm surprised that an ad-driven "relocation" message board allows it.


ReplyQuote
Hiya!
(@Hiya!)
Trusted Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 727
June 24, 2011 1:37 pm  

Business is business. Ones the landlord and one's the tenant. The landlord and tenant is absolutely a working relationship. Money is exchanged for goods.

Saying you grieve for the virgin islanders is not racist at all. Anyone that lives here, pays taxes, etc is a virgin islanders. With our crooked politicians and totally inept government, not to mention health care and the police, I can easily understand why he grieves for us. If he said he only grieves for west indians you might have a case. But even then west indians come in all shapes and colors. I think you are seeing things that are not there because one jacka$$ upset you.


ReplyQuote
onthespot
(@onthespot)
Advanced Member
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 380
June 24, 2011 2:32 pm  

I think "you people" is all inclusive, and if he had said "your people" to a black man, it would have had strong racist overtones.


ReplyQuote
Hiya!
(@Hiya!)
Trusted Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 727
June 24, 2011 3:19 pm  

Tenant said that, not the landlord. We all agree the tenant is a jacka$$. But there are always going to be people like that in the world no matter their skin color.


ReplyQuote
ibutcherii
(@ibutcherii)
Advanced Member
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 27
June 24, 2011 3:30 pm  

Neil,

I too am using my name, and not hiding behind an anonymous.

My personal interest, I live near to Cane Bay, and my family owns property there, as well.

You are stuck on the fact that I questioned, not accused, the property owner of having a exclusive agenda; he can speak for himself.

His representative that night did a poor job selling his safety and enhancement presentation.

This site is about moving to the territory. What better opportunity to expose the negative conditions that exist here.

I began teaching here in 1969, as a vocational art teacher, and retired in 2000.

I have witness the changes: the good, the bad and the ugly. There a lot of reasons for what is bad and ugly.

What is ugly is the recent influx of Carpet Baggers, who are here for one reason alone, and have no regard for the condition of the residents.

I have to agree with everyone else, who understands that it is our own Government at fault for what is lacking in opportunities here.

Imagine, the arts and the trades have been slowly discontinued, and we import souvenirs made in China, and elsewhere, promoting Virgin Islands' Culture.

I see trade schools, sport centers, B and B's as alternative to condos and resorts. The youth here have not been conditioned to be servants.

Progress, to me, is Inclusion.

As an Elder, I am witnessing the same conditions from the past, that have been over looked or hidden from the communities' eyes.

I am not against progress or change, but this kind of situation is exactly what I want to avoid, how We People were treated in the past.

Probably, you can not see or will not accept my position, but there are those who understand exactly what I am saying.


ReplyQuote
Page 1 / 5
Search this website
Close Menu