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OT: HR3200 - you may read the health care reform bill as it develops

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Trade
(@Trade)
Expert

I'm HOPING he meant VI politician.

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Posted : September 12, 2009 4:58 pm
rotorhead
(@rotorhead)
Trusted Member

Great article. We need to do more to improve existing programs before implementing a massive new program. The government is too incompetent to be trusted with more of our money.

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Posted : September 12, 2009 5:24 pm
trw
 trw
(@trw)
Expert
trw
 trw
(@trw)
Expert

http://www.alternet.org/healthwellness/

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Posted : September 13, 2009 11:07 am
stiphy
(@stiphy)
Trusted Member

I thought this article explained very nicely how our current insurance system works in simple terms: http://webworkerdaily.com/2009/09/11/do-health-insurance-and-self-employment-mix/. Thought of this thread when I read it...I am not for any socialized approach but the flaws in the current system are also pretty obvious when you read this article. Figured I'd share.

Sean

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Posted : September 14, 2009 10:40 am
rotorhead
(@rotorhead)
Trusted Member

________________________________________

OLD VERSION: The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter.
The grasshopper thinks the ant is a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away.
Come winter, the ant is warm and well fed.
The grasshopper has no food or shelter, so he dies out in the cold.

MORAL OF THE STORY: Be responsible for yourself! (see new version below)

MODERN VERSION: The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter.
The grasshopper thinks the ant is a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away.
Come winter, the shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while others are cold and starving.

CBS, NBC , PBS, CNN, and ABC show up to provide pictures of the shivering grasshopper next to a video of the ant in his comfortable home with a table filled with food. America is stunned by the sharp contrast.

How can this be, that in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so?

Kermit the Frog appears on Oprah with the grasshopper and everybody cries when they sing, 'It's Not Easy Being Green.'

Acorn stages a demonstration in front of the ant 's house where the news stations film the group singing, 'We shall overcome.'

Rev. Jeremiah Wright then has the group kneel down to pray to God for the grasshopper's sake.

Nancy Pelosi & Harry Reid exclaim in an interview with Larry King that the ant has gotten rich off the back of the grasshopper, and both call for an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his fair share.

Finally, the EEOC drafts the Economic Equity & Anti-Grasshopper Act retroactive to the beginning of the summer.

The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number of green bugs and, having nothing left to pay his retroactive taxes, his home is confiscated by the Government Green Czar.

The story ends as we see the grasshopper finishing up the last bits of the ants food while the government house he is in, which just happens to be the ant's old house, crumbles around him because he doesn't maintain it.

The ant has disappeared in the snow.

The grasshopper is found dead in a drug related incident and the house, now abandoned, is taken over by a gang of spiders who terrorize the once peaceful neighborhood.

MORAL OF THE STORY: Be careful how you vote in 2010.

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Posted : September 14, 2009 9:53 pm
Lizard
(@Lizard)
Trusted Member

Roto,
We are not dealing with bugs!

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Posted : September 14, 2009 10:37 pm
rotorhead
(@rotorhead)
Trusted Member

The story applies equally to Lizards!

I take it you don't like fables.

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Posted : September 14, 2009 10:39 pm
stxfoodie
(@stxfoodie)
Advanced Member

Perhaps we should only allow people who actually pay taxes to vote? Just a thought. The Robin Hood syndrome runs rampant if you can vote for it but don't have to pay for it. Isn't Marx's second plank a progressive income tax?

More random thoughts:

Unnecessary and Immoral
By Jake Towne
Published 09/08/09

Printer-friendly version

"In a Time of Universal Deceit, Telling the Truth is a Revolutionary Act."

- George Orwell, author of 1984

Summary: The federal income tax is an unnecessary and immoral tax. I am in favor of abolishing the federal income tax and eventually the entire IRS. YOUR income from YOUR labor belongs to you and no one else, especially the government, has the right to steal it from you. Most Americans are unaware that while the government collects $1,200 billion in federal income taxes and collects roughly $3,000 billion in total taxes, the fact is that "only" $67 billion is necessary to run the executive, legislative, and judicial branches, which includes the FBI and federal court system. (1) (2) (3) When one compares this amount to the Banker Bailout of October 2008 for $800 billion and the Obama Stimulus Plan for $1,100 billion with interest, one wonders why not bailout the taxpayer in a plunging economy instead?

Although a removal of this tax will be strongly opposed, likely not even addressed, by my Republican and Democrat opponents, I am extremely confident that this is the best step for each individual and our country as a whole to achieve prosperity since the tax's only purposes are to redistribute wealth and steal the fruit of one's labor. The elimination of this tax will be paid for by ending the costly overseas military empire of 761 bases in 147 countries which includes 54,974 soldiers based in Germany, and 34,039 soldiers based in Japan, although WWII ended 64 years ago. (4)

Since eliminating the tax may not be politically possible while I am in office, I also pledge to aggressively fight to abrade the strength and breadth of this tax by introducing a series of bills that legislate changes such as no income tax withholding from paychecks, no taxes on tips, raising the standard deduction, removing taxes on capital gains and interest, and many more. I am open to supporting other transition plans and ideas, but all must undeniably reduce the tax burden, and not be "revenue-neutral."

I recognize that most people have been engrained with the idea that we must have an IRS income tax, that everyone must "pay their fair share" to the country. Although I will grant that an absence of taxes is impossible, nothing could be further from the truth than to claim the federal income tax is necessary. Therefore, here is the truth with sources to support my reasoning:

1)The federal income tax was originally a Marxist idea. In 1848, Karl Marx wrote the 10 Planks of a Communist State in his Communist Manifesto. The second plank, right after the abolition of private property was "a heavy progressive or graduated income tax." (5) In 1909, this Marxist idea was politically accepted by Americans as retribution against the "evil capitalists" who had caused the Panic of 1907, although fraudulent money and credit expansions by the bankers was the real root cause. 100 years later, both political parties still scapegoat all those in the financial industry as "evil doers." (6) (7) By claiming an ever-increasing amount of your income, the State literally owns your labor. The progressive income tax strongly discourages the creation of new innovations, goods and services, as well as depleting and discouraging citizens to obtain more income. (photo)

2)The federal income tax has grown far beyond its original scope. The income tax was first placed into circulation as a 1-7% tax on only the very richest Americans. The first IRS income tax form had all those earning less than $20,000 paying NOTHING. (8) This may sound insignificant but, per the Minneapolis FED, this was the equivalent of $430,707 in 2009. (9) This top tax bracket grew to an onerous 92% in the 1950s. While the rate for the richest has receded, for the middle class this tax has grown 500% to 1000% from this time period. (10) Today, the top 1% of all wage-earners still pay over 40% of the total income tax collected. (11)

However, this certainly does not mean that the average American is not taxed heavily. An American making a salary of $50,000 will still pay around 15% in federal income tax without factoring in tax on interest and capital gains. This is in addition to the 15.3% payroll flat tax from Social Security and Medicare, the 3.07% Pennsylvania state income tax, any local, estate, vehicle, sales or property taxes, and the most vicious hidden tax of them all, the FED's inflation tax, which has been running amok at 5-10% annually since 2002. (12) (13)

3)The premise behind collecting the federal income tax is a complete farce. The IRS claims the tax is voluntary, whereas any sane American realizes that she or he will go to jail if the tax is not paid. The Treasury calls it "our voluntary tax system." (14) The IRS claims it pursues "enforcement programs to promote voluntary compliance" and establishes "strategies to maximize voluntary tax law compliance by emphasizing customer satisfaction." (14) This is evident from not only the legal code, but even from the latest 1040 instructions to the taxpayer! (15A) (15B) (16)

IRS Commissioner Douglas Shulman writes that the American taxpayer willingly pays income tax "of their own free will" but laments "unfortunately, there will always be some that cheat their fellow citizens by avoiding the payment of their fair share of taxes." Shulman then infers that IRS enforcement will be "prompt" and "strong" (read: 'swift' and 'merciless') for this voluntary tax. (17)

4)The federal income tax is of dubious constitutionality and the Founding Fathers sought to prevent it. The 16th "Income Tax" Amendment of 1913 may never have been officially ratified, and even if it was, in 1916 the Supreme Court ruled "the Sixteenth Amendment does not purport to confer power to levy income taxes" in Brushaber vs. Union Pacific Railroad. (18) (19) (20) (21) However, I do concede the point that Congress has successfully used the amendment as the basis of its powers to tax incomes.

It is important to realize that the Congress can stop the income tax without first revoking the 16th Amendment. After all, the 16th Amendment did not really create a NEW tax; all it did was allow for DIRECT taxation of the citizens. Before the 16th, federal taxes were apportioned; that is, each state paid their "dues" to the federal government based on population. Washington, D.C. never sent a tax bill to each individual citizen. The 16th changed all this, and it is crucial to understand that our Founders did not intend for this to happen because its omission was purposefully done in the original Constitution.

5)The income tax is mostly used for War-Making, the Welfare State, and the National Debt - not general government and law enforcement! The income tax amounted to $1.2 Trillion for 2008. (2) Outlays were for $2.9 Trillion plus the $0.8 Trillion October bailout. (1) We spent just $0.067 Trillion for general government and law enforcement! (3) Out of every tax dollar, the IRS estimates we spend about a quarter on defense, a dime on the national debt, two pennies on general government & law enforcement and the remainder on Social Security (a giant Ponzi scheme) and other welfare and social programs. (22) (23) (24)

6)The $1.2 Trillion federal income tax is unnecessary. Cutting our overseas military empire spending of $1 Trillion per year would justify its elimination. (25) Instead of bailing out the banks for $0.8 Trillion in October and $1.1 Trillion of the Obama stimulus plan, we could have bailed out the increasingly unemployed taxpayer for the 2008 and 2009 tax bills as I argued in January 2009. (26)

7)America did quite well for one hundred and forty (140) years without an income tax, from 1776-1913.

8)Since we do not have a sound currency anchored to anything, and the fractional reserve system has broken down, this makes the income tax even more unnecessary. As Irelated earlier, our dollar-based monetary system has been reduced to simple paper ticket printing or electrons in bank accounts. (27) It is no secret that we simply could just print up even more tickets each year to pay for government expenses instead of resorting to both the pretense and bureaucratic waste of having the IRS plunder the population. Although foreign Treasury bond holders would be horrified, at least the drop in purchasing power would be publicly visible and more honest to everyone, especially savers and those on fixed incomes.

9)Today's Establishment use the federal income tax solely as an instrument to drive and force social and economic change. Let's not bother with the more infamous loopholes, let's look at the much-lauded mortgage tax credits. What were the effects? One, while beneficial for those with mortgages, the government added fuel to the FED-created housing boom by subsidizing more people to obtain mortgages. Two, over the long run, this increased demand increases the housing prices, removing some of the benefit in the tax break. Three, those without mortgages were, in effect, penalized. The same logic can be applied to other deductions, whether education credits, charitable donations, or even child credits or orphan drug research. (28) Government exists to protect liberty, not to redistribute wealth, grant special privileges, or influence the lives of individuals and their actions. (photo)

10) The federal income tax code is time-consuming, confusing and baffling for many Americans. No wonder the code itself now consists of 3.4 million words and if printed would fill 7,500 pages. (15B) The code and regulations together were 66,498 pages long in 2006. (29) The taxpayer's 1040 instructions are 161 pages long.(17) Americans spent 6.4 Billion hours filing their taxes in 2006. (29)

11) America's "Tax Army" employs more people (1.2 million) than we have armed forces stationed in the United States (0.9 million). (14) (4) Collecting taxes is a completely non-value added task, adding nothing to our economy. Some of our brightest minds -- lawyers, accountants, and computer experts - pound away at keyboards trying to figure out either how to plunder more money from others or find loops in the tax code to "save costs" for their clients. The total cost of collecting taxes is estimated at $63 billion, ironically just $4 Billion short of funding general government and law enforcement! (30) (3) The IRS employs 91,000 and will spend $11.6 Billion in 2009 collecting taxes. (31) (32)

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Posted : September 14, 2009 10:49 pm
Lizard
(@Lizard)
Trusted Member

Roto,
btw remember the ancient greek belief that " the Outward Reflects the Inward" Look in the mirror lately you bear this out!

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Posted : September 14, 2009 10:50 pm
stxfoodie
(@stxfoodie)
Advanced Member

PS - social moral outrage is just as indecent as republican sexual moral outrage. Same same but different - one group imposes their version of morality on someone else because they have the moral high ground or God on their side. When will we just learn to let people live freely if they don't interfere with anyone else's righ to the pursuit of happiness? That is my utopia - not some Marxist version.

Cheers.

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Posted : September 14, 2009 10:54 pm
Lizard
(@Lizard)
Trusted Member

Stxfoodie,
Only because I don't have that much time, Look at Paragraph #7 America did quite well for 140 years without income tax 1776-1913.
A least 100 of those years had slave labor no tax to collect.

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Posted : September 14, 2009 11:09 pm
Ms Information
(@Ms_Information)
Advanced Member

I get so tired of the "cut and paste" dumbo's. They read crap on some idiot's blog or Fox News and and inflict it on the rest of us. I am tired to death of the ignorance of those who are trying to destroy responsible changes in health care insurance in America. All of this crap about creeping socialism is stupid and irrational. Hey folks we have had "socialism" in America since the very beginning. We have libraries, schools, police, firemen, roads, sewers, water, and much more. Grow up...

It is now time for a full, cover everyone, medical insurance system. I am sure that it won't happen in my lifetime, but we should at least do what we can. It is the right and MORAL thing to do. I already get Medicare ,a wonderful (socialistic ? medical plan). My children all have great health insurance. I have no personal axe to grind. I just know that NOW... it is the right thing to do.....

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Posted : September 15, 2009 12:32 am
DUN
 DUN
(@DUN)
Trusted Member

Here’s some "cut `n paste"

H.R. 3200 is 1,018 pages long...

The entire us constitution is printed on 6 pages: pages 1-4 are the base text of the constitution...

Page 5 is the letter of transmittal...

Page 6 contains the Bill of Rights

While mirroring ones opinion may be pathetic by MS measure, the internet is invaluable to obtain facts!

Before the internet, you`d call uncle Teddy(or go to the library)!
Tools can be used, or misused.

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Posted : September 15, 2009 3:40 am
Lizard
(@Lizard)
Trusted Member

Yada,yada,yada, - grade school Kids cut and paste, with an understanding of what they cut and paste.

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Posted : September 15, 2009 5:24 am
stxfoodie
(@stxfoodie)
Advanced Member

Dear Ms. - I don't believe I ever called you a dumbo or your opinions stupid and irrational. Nor have i told you to grow up. I will, however, ask you to be a little more respectful of me when posting regardless of whether you agree with my opinion or not. Apparently you find cutting and pasting inapproriate - well I'll just put links up instead that way it won't bother you so much.

I wholeheartedly disagree with your statement that it is the RIGHT and MORAL thing to do. Whose morality? Whose RIGHT? What I'd like to understand is how is imposing your vision of social morality any different than a right wing republican imposing their vision of morality (think abortion or sexual mores) on someone else? For the life of me, I can't understand how its different. Please someone explain it to me? The best I can come up with is its because I'm right.

Lizard - grade school kids? Thanks much. Lets denigrate the process as opposed to actually picking apart the logical and factual argument. Much easier that way isn't it? I'll refrain from cutting and pasting in the future so as not to offend you.

Regards -

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Posted : September 15, 2009 1:06 pm
Lizard
(@Lizard)
Trusted Member

Stxfoodie,
"THANKS"

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Posted : September 15, 2009 1:16 pm
trw
 trw
(@trw)
Expert

hey yell at me all you want but i still believe if you're not a property or landowner you have no right to vote,no vested interest in anything

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Posted : September 15, 2009 9:28 pm
Lizard
(@Lizard)
Trusted Member

trw,
You scream your about civil rights, equal rights being violated, and know you profess one must be a land baron to vote. Are you back on Drugs or just plain Stupid?

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Posted : September 15, 2009 10:08 pm
trw
 trw
(@trw)
Expert

nope non of the above lizard, just thoughtfull, why would "renters" have any vested interest in anything, as far as i can tell they are parasites,they suck up the good and leave when it gets bad

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Posted : September 16, 2009 8:51 am
trw
 trw
(@trw)
Expert

look you dumbass have you not figured out yet that you're dealing with like 5 or 6 TRW's , you'vr got the nice one and then you have the evil one and then you have the indifferent one or the amoral one,orthe one that seeks justice or the one that truly could give ashit

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Posted : September 16, 2009 9:06 am
Lizard
(@Lizard)
Trusted Member

Sorry Sybil,
Maybe your group should take a vacation!

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Posted : September 16, 2009 9:17 am
trw
 trw
(@trw)
Expert

no lizard, most people have 2 or 3 people inside themselves, and jeez lizard you seem so bitter alot of the time , facing death?,not used to be worn out and used up and like my grandfather, just plain worthless with dementia,honey you'll get used to it,lol we',ll let you hide bur own easter eggs

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Posted : September 16, 2009 12:36 pm
Lizard
(@Lizard)
Trusted Member

trw,
Which benevolent soul just posted this time?

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Posted : September 16, 2009 1:16 pm
trw
 trw
(@trw)
Expert

lol the crabby one

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Posted : September 16, 2009 1:36 pm
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