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gringojj
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September 30, 2012 2:02 pm  

OldTart--The way of life in the animal kingdom does not equate to our way of life. In animal societies the the head of a group alot of times gets their status by force, sometimes even murder. We do not want a society where our leaders are put into power this way. You cannot use the animal kingdom as a model or justification for human practices. You can use it to explain our feelings and natural instincts however as they are shared deep in our being. For example some humans still use the model of violence or murder to attain power. We know from experience what that leads too and can consciously decide if it is wrong. Just because animals do it, doesnt make it right.

speee1dy--I can speak on the subject just fine thank you. Both scenarios involve using pain, fear, and violence for the purpose of gaining control. They both can also involve the act being commited for the gratification of the abuser.

Sheiba---Thank you for being a good person. Sorry for the primal analogy but kids are like puppies. If anyone here knows anything about training dogs, the correct way to do it is with positive reinforcement. If you praise them when they do well they will always be eager to learn more. If you hit them when they do wrong you may raise a dog that is skiddish. When a dog is skiddish it will often bite out of fear. Granted, some dogs that are hit will "turn out just fine", but I do not want to take a chance and raise a dog that may attack me, my family, or anyone else unless they are protecting us.


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sheiba
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September 30, 2012 2:23 pm  

Well said gringojj.
I like the puppy/dog analogy. Extreme physical/mental punishment (abuse) can and often does result in a submissive, skiddish , frightened personality or an aggressive, violent personality.


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blu4u
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September 30, 2012 2:44 pm  

Well said gringojj.
I like the puppy/dog analogy. Extreme physical/mental punishment (abuse) can and often does result in a submissive, skiddish , frightened personality or an aggressive, violent personality.

Tart, you must see this, time after time, durring the corse of your work with the humane socitey....

Also, what other spieces builds aircraft, uses computers, creates art for enjoyment, has a complex system of laws, reads, uses curenceny, performs open heart surgery? Humans have evolved past using violence, pain and humiliation to "educate" our childern. (at least some of us have).
Unfortunately, child abuse / spoucal abuse is more prevelant in economically challenged households. Sort of a chicken/egg senerio.


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OldTart
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September 30, 2012 3:03 pm  

Maybe I should just repeat what I already said, viz:

I'm pointing out that animals discipline their young with swats and smacks and opining that a simple parental swat/smack when all else fails isn't "abuse" by any stretch and isn't analogous to a cruel beating.

If you feel nonetheless that my comments indicate that I condone abusive beatings all the way to murder then so be it. 😀 A few cuffs on the head and a couple of swats on my bum didn't damage me for my life but certainly humiliated me and kept me in line when I was being an obnoxious brat. Oh, and I didn't end up an abuser either.


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sheiba
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September 30, 2012 3:43 pm  

Ohana,
Topic has gotten a bit off subject but to answer your question...yes corporal punishment exists in the public schools.
When my children attended public school, they were personally never slapped, spanked, cracked on the knuckles but they witnessed it on a daily basis. Had it happened to my children, i would have brought attention to the matter and the staff is very much aware of what kids to avoid this type of punishment. Very sad situation. But again, I do believe if more good parents were involved, change could occurr...keep this in mind.
I think i have said enough, Im out.
Thanks for letting me rant.


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gringojj
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September 30, 2012 3:58 pm  

OldTart now you are putting words in my mouth lol. I was giving an analysis of your opinion that since animals do it then its okay for us to do it too. I do not agree that that is a valid justification. As a matter of fact I do not believe that analogy has any bearing on this discussion. Animals do not have schools where their offspring are disrespectful. They also do not have domestic issues. You cannot take your reasoning any further. For example, you cannot say the elephants have a much lower percentage of young elephants in prison for assaults than humans because they smack their offspring. Your reasoning does not equate.

As a child, I got spankings and guess what? As a teenager and into my mid 20s I was a very bad person. I dont blame it on getting spanked. My point is that the spanking didnt work. So OldTart would you propose that maybe I should have been spanked more? Or maybe my father should have stepped the beatings up a notch? There are other ways to deal with issues with your child besides spankings. My parents never tried anything else. Now as a father of 3 kids I try to find out ways to deal with issues that do not involve violence. I teach my kids it is wrong to hit each other or other kids. What kind of example would I set if I then hit them? I do not hit my kids and people sometimes comment to me on how well behaved they are.

You do not need to hit your kids in order to raise them to be good people. Good parenting will do that.

OldTart you say "a few" cuffs or swats is ok. Who defines what is ok and what is not? Is once a week okay? Once a day? How hard of a hit is okay and for how long of time is ok to spank? If you keep hitting them and they still misbehave should we hit them more?

These are decisions that parents need to make individually. Because of the gray areas that are involved, I choose to just not do it at all. I believe we are all alot safer that way.


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speee1dy
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September 30, 2012 4:24 pm  

gringoij, so you were an abused spouse?


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gringojj
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September 30, 2012 4:32 pm  

speee1dy I do not need to answer that question and I wont. That question has no bearing on this thread and it really shows what kind of person you are to even ask something like that.


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speee1dy
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September 30, 2012 4:34 pm  

if you say so. my point is it is much different to get spanked maybe once or twice a year than to get the crap beat out of you by your spouse.
do not make assumptions on my character


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gringojj
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September 30, 2012 4:44 pm  

I understand your point and I have the right to disagree with it and I wasnt assuming about your character YOU came out on a public forum and asked me if I was an abused spouse. There are no assumptions to be made after that. Asking a question about a personal matter like that on a forum like this speaks volumes about your character.


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speee1dy
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September 30, 2012 4:47 pm  

i asked you that question based on a comment you made earlier


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gringojj
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September 30, 2012 4:53 pm  

I know why you asked it and dont care and for your information it is extremely distasteful, disrespectful, and reprehensible to ask someone a question like that in a forum like this.


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speee1dy
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September 30, 2012 4:59 pm  

you are the one that said you could speak on the subject just fine thank you, not me.
and i do not think i need your information.
have a great day


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OldTart
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September 30, 2012 5:00 pm  

Your reasoning does not equate.

And neither do your assumptions about my opinions which you are stretching to an extreme.


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gringojj
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September 30, 2012 5:10 pm  

speee1dy--Yes you have shown your true colors, now run and hide because you have been exposed.

Oldtart---This is what you said---"I'm pointing out that animals discipline their young with swats and smacks and opining that a simple parental swat/smack when all else fails isn't "abuse" by any stretch and isn't analogous to a cruel beating."

And this was my reply--- "I was giving an analysis of your opinion that since animals do it then its okay for us to do it too. I do not agree that that is a valid justification. As a matter of fact I do not believe that analogy has any bearing on this discussion. Animals do not have schools where their offspring are disrespectful. They also do not have domestic issues. You cannot take your reasoning any further. For example, you cannot say the elephants have a much lower percentage of young elephants in prison for assaults than humans because they smack their offspring. Your reasoning does not equate."

Please show me where I am making an assumption on your opinion. Also please show me where I am stretching your opinion to an extreme.


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OldTart
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September 30, 2012 5:34 pm  

Please show me where I am making an assumption on your opinion. Also please show me where I am stretching your opinion to an extreme.

I'll pass. Enjoy the rest of the weekend!


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gringojj
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September 30, 2012 5:42 pm  

Please show me where I am making an assumption on your opinion. Also please show me where I am stretching your opinion to an extreme.

I'll pass. Enjoy the rest of the weekend!

Ahh yes it seems I have given some people on this board alot to think about.

You and speee1dy can go run and hide together.


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dntw8up
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September 30, 2012 8:19 pm  

"Though you may compel a child with blows, what are you to do with him when he is a young man no longer amenable to such threats and confronted with tasks of far greater difficulty?" - Quintilian, "Institutes of Oratory" (95 AD)

Children model themselves after the adults in their lives, so how children settle disagreements and cope with not being able to have things they want reflects how the adults in their lives respond to such challenges. It is logically inconsistent for adults to teach children that hitting is unacceptable, unless adults have successfully found other means of expressing their own emotions. Crime reflects society's failure to teach its children socially acceptable methods of dealing with life's inevitable frustration, anger and disappointment. Sadly, the chief obstacle to meaningful futures for VI children is the dearth of role models for its youth.


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rotorhead
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September 30, 2012 9:11 pm  

Just think, if we had an extended discussion board we could continue to discuss this without violating the board rules about hijacking threads and topics which are not related to moving to the VI.

This is a very controversial topic for a VI relocation board. The first few posts answering the question about whether there was corporal punishment in the VI school system was on topic, after that not so much.


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Ohana
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September 30, 2012 9:41 pm  

I have taught or studied in The Netherlands, Canada and Hawaii, where capital punishment is a NoNo, and against the law.
In a majority of these schools was a "NO TOUCH AT ALL POLICY " , which counted for STAFF AND STUDENTS and started at young age and it included play wrestling.
Students, parents and staff also were made very clear why this policy was in effect.
Also students and staff should not run or scream overly loud. Running during Recess and PE is fine).
The Netherlands as well as Canada, are in the top 5 of the world regarding education and low crime.

In Hawaii I have seen , in recent years , big changes for the better made , in the public school system.
E.g. Board of Education adopted a dress code. Colorful, t-shirts designed each year by students them selves. A different one for each age group.
A plus programs for home work and play time.
Tutoring and behavior modification classes.

What consequences for bad behavior concerns, solving math problems after school time and pick up by parents was one of the methods that worked.


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OldTart
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September 30, 2012 9:53 pm  

I have taught or studied in The Netherlands, Canada and Hawaii, where capital punishment is a NoNo, and against the law.

I'm not further contributing to this thread but enjoyed the typo. Thanks for the chuckle!


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speee1dy
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September 30, 2012 9:55 pm  

rotor, you do make me smile lol


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blu4u
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September 30, 2012 10:01 pm  

Ahh yes it seems I have given some people on this board alot to think about.

I hope so.
The topic is worthy of discussion since it pretains to how people in the territory view violence.
VI public v. private education is usually a top concern for families with school aged children.


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Ohana
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September 30, 2012 10:08 pm  

We learned a lot from all of you, thank you, if indeed we move , we bring a 7 year old grandson with his nice parents and..... a dog!
The Ohana's


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speee1dy
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September 30, 2012 10:13 pm  

lol, sorry your post was overtaken by us passionate people- please forgive


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