Michael Vick and An...
 
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Michael Vick and Animal Abuse

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Trade
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1. If people felt this strongly about their fellow humans, maybe we wouldn't have poverty.

If more people felt this strongly about their animals, maybe we wouldn't have as much violence, child abuse & murder.

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Posted : August 21, 2009 6:40 pm
eldove76
(@eldove76)
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Dan

(tu)

I should have waited for your post before I said anything. That's all that needed to be said, in a nutshell.

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Posted : August 21, 2009 6:48 pm
HBIC
 HBIC
(@HBIC)
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If more people felt this strongly about their animals, maybe we wouldn't have as much violence, child abuse & murder.

I agree.

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Posted : August 21, 2009 8:01 pm
Lizard
(@Lizard)
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Hey Dan,
What rehabilitation did "Vick" get? He received a wink of justice in the space of time. The same animals that he abused, tortured, and killed, for pleasure and profit had no say. However the dogs that survived his atrocities against them would most definitely forgive him. The funny thing is the dogs that were rescued had to be rehabilitated. I will not forgive or forget if that's retribution so be it. Vick is a bum, mutt, thug and gangster I hope you noticed I used present tense. Oh and maybe Jesus can figure out what to do with him later, because our Justice System failed us in this case.

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Posted : August 21, 2009 8:58 pm
Dan.Stutzman
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Hey Dan,
What rehabilitation did "Vick" get? He received a wink of justice in the space of time. The same animals that he abused, tortured, and killed, for pleasure and profit had no say. However the dogs that survived his atrocities against them would most definitely forgive him. The funny thing is the dogs that were rescued had to be rehabilitated. I will not forgive or forget if that's retribution so be it. Vick is a bum, mutt, thug and gangster I hope you noticed I used present tense. Oh and maybe Jesus can figure out what to do with him later, because our Justice System failed us in this case.

What would you have happen Lizard? If you are going to claim foul, are you willing to get your hand's dirty? Are you willing to pull the hangman's lever?

I just want to say this: I am not defending Vick. I support Helen Krause http://www.helenkrause.org/ quite extensively financially. Once my wife and I settle down, we plan on starting our own No-Kill Animal Shelter.

But people deserve a second chance. I have been exposed to animal fighting and it isn't pretty. But we do not live a Scarlet Letter society, despite the vast majority of pleas that I have been hearing. American's are addicted to near-lifetime punitive measures no matter what the crime. The blood lust amazes me sometimes.

The real problem that people have with Vick isn't the dog fighting. It's the resentment that he was part of something heinous, lost most of his money, served his time, and now is going to come out and make millions again. If Vick wasn't going to make millions, his name wouldn't even be on our minds. But it's the money that is driving this hate.

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Posted : August 22, 2009 3:06 am
Michaelds9
(@Michaelds9)
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Please reconsider previous post.

But it's the money that is driving this hate.

Herr Stutzman if you are so well traveled and educated you surely have learned not to judge an entire people by your own prejudices.

Your wife English wife married a Deutslander no?

I could have made a lot of money but was not driven that way. I'm not unique - tho certainly a little off - it's the island way 😀

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Posted : August 22, 2009 3:27 am
Betty
(@Betty)
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American's are addicted to near-lifetime punitive measures no matter what the crime. The blood lust amazes me sometimes.

You need to read some history if you really believe Americans have the lock down on blood lust and hate or just read your own newspapers.

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Posted : August 22, 2009 3:48 am
Dan.Stutzman
(@Dan.Stutzman)
Advanced Member

Please reconsider previous post.

But it's the money that is driving this hate.

Herr Stutzman if you are so well traveled and educated you surely have learned not to judge an entire people by your own prejudices.

Your wife English wife married a Deutslander no?

I could have made a lot of money but was not driven that way. I'm not unique - tho certainly a little off - it's the island way 😀

I'm not quite sure what you are implying? Are you implying that my English wife shouldn't have married me because my grandparents were Nazi's and bombed mercilessly England for nearly 6 years? If you are going to go that way, I am well prepared to debate the farce that was the Treaty of Versaille and what created the Nazi revolution. Please keep in mind that my interpretation of German history is much different than an American's POV.

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Posted : August 22, 2009 4:07 am
Dan.Stutzman
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American's are addicted to near-lifetime punitive measures no matter what the crime. The blood lust amazes me sometimes.

You need to read some history if you really believe Americans have the lock down on blood lust and hate or just read your own newspapers.

And two wrongs make a right how?

As for crime, punishment, and rehabilitation, maybe you should educate yourself on current events in regards to the criminal justice system of Germany and the EU has a whole. If you are referencing something else in particular, please let me know.

Please no strawman arguments.

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Posted : August 22, 2009 4:13 am
Michaelds9
(@Michaelds9)
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No sir I am not!
I'm trying to illustrate people can forgive.
I simply wish for you not to paint an entire people with one brush. Just as your wife clearly has not.
I'm well aware Versaille was vengeance personified an crippled and lead to the next war.
And lessons were learned which is one reason for the Berlin airlift.
Believe it or not some of us can actually read.
(this is sarcasm used to illustrate absurdities - not a personal attack)

You have shown some contempt for those born in the USA. IMO it is unbecoming of an educated traveled person. I wish better of you.
My last name is Schaaf. From where do think my grand parents might have come?
Mien kinder deutsch comes back when I hear German tourists speaking for a couple of days.

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Posted : August 22, 2009 4:35 am
Lizard
(@Lizard)
Trusted Member

Dan,
If you think money has anything to do with my outrage towards"Vick" you're a fool. The Blood lust was "Vicks"! It's not in my power to pull a hangman's lever, or make him wear a scarlet letter on his team jersey. However I can get my hands dirty via protest of his actions, with the written word. The punishment or as you say the rehabilitation did not fit the severity of the crime. Our American Society are stewards for dogs/animals, my silence would be an acceptance of this atrocity.

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Posted : August 22, 2009 6:23 am
terry
(@terry)
Expert

If they were ti make it a Capitol offense, I would glady pay my way to pull the lever!
Same with child molesters and the like.

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Posted : August 22, 2009 2:43 pm
limetime2
(@limetime2)
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Uttica... STT has a Humane Society. Humane Society of St. Thomas. STX has an Animal Shelter - St. Croix Animal Welfare Center. Both are animal welfare organizations that fight animal cruelty in the Virgin Islands. The shelters both were instrumental in getting dog fighting on the books as a felony here in the islands. Other animal cruelty laws are in place as well thanks to the work of these two organizations. Every law was a battle and some fights were left to fight another day (cockfighting). It is mandated federally that the island government provide animal control services and our local government does this by contracting animal welfare duties out to these two non profit organizations... but with caveats. The shelters have no enforcement authority to speak of. They must be accompanied by a police officer when working animal cruelty cases. The police are not supportive and tend to drop the cases, fail to get the witnesses, lose interest... etc (see other posts about our corrupt government and police force). We have as yet to take an animal cruelty case to court , despite having had several high profile cases that should have.) So.. what do these animal welfare organizations do?

I can speak only for what the STX Center does... but... it does a lot. It has been on island and functioning since 1976 and operates out of a small dilapidated shelter (18 kennels, 20 or 30 puppy cages and 20 or 30 cat cages, and assorted temporary housing). Those cages are always full, usually with 2 or 3 big dogs in each of the kennels). The shelter cares for about 100 animals everyday. The shelter adopts out about 40 to 50 animals a month. The shelter has an open-door policy and never refuses an animal that is brought to the shelter. It probably recieves 150 to 200 animals each month either through owner surrender (most common), lost and found, or strays. If the shelter did not take these animals in, they would be abandoned on our streets, homeless, hungry and traffic and health hazards. Everyday shelter staff have to deal with people who think pets are disposable ... and everyday they have to deal with the consequences of those irresponsible people. The good news is the surrender numbers are getting better yearly and fewer and fewer animals are being dropped off unwanted. The key is humane education, overpopulation control and responsible pet ownership. STX Animal Welfare Center has had a low cost spay/neuter program for more than 10 years and has offered low cost/ free/ and or assisted/sponsored spay neuter services to the community for all of that time. They have facilitated thousands and thousands of spay/neuter surgeries and continue to do so with the cooperation of island veterinarians and community donors. Unfortunatly too much of our population remains opposed to sterilization as a means of pet overpopulation control... but, we are gaining ground. Education is the key. STX Animal Welfare Center has a humane education program that reaches out to every school on island and offers age specific lessons on kindness to animals, responsible pet ownership and pet overpopulation. Only by reaching the children can we change the future. The shelter also has several other important animal welfare programs including adoptions, Pets from Paradise, and community services.

Meanwhile... animals are arriving daily at the shelter and the shelter staff must care for them. Non-profit does not mean no-expenses. It cost a lot of money to care for 100 animals a day. Food must be bought and prepared, kennels must be cleaned, medicine must be administered and salaries must be paid. Although the shelter relies on volunteers when it can, it must also have reliable , trained staff as well. They have a part-time veterinarian again on staff now. All this costs money. The Government... in its infinite wisdom... has decided this year to once again cut the funding of the shelters.... in half. They operate with less than 50K in annual assistance from the government. The rest the shelter must get through fundraising and donations and adoption fees.

The shelter gets little to no support from our government. The shelter gets little or no support from our police force. However, the staff and the board know that the job they do is so important in our community that they must continue doing it. They can not stop, not because they care so much about the community... but because they care so much about the animals that would suffer needlessly if the shelter did not exist. People find it easy to criticize the shelter, their facilty isn't fancy or pretty, the job they do isn't perfect, they can not do as much as they'd like to , and there hands are tied in many ways by our government ... but the job they do is vital.

I urge everyone reading this to think about the job that is required our there... how heartbreaking it can be... and how heartwarming it is as well. Its a necessary job that most of us claim we "could never do". But thankfully... they find the strength to do it. Everyday the staff hugs, or gets free kisses, or laughs at the playful antics of a dog, cat, puppy or kitten... who is hoping for a second chance.... hoping. Everyday they see animals brough in in terrible condition, but still able to wag their tail when someone shows them some compassion. Everyday, the staff sheds tears... sad tears, happy tears, angry tears.

I'm shedding sad tears right now because I know that probably fewer than 20 people will read this message... and fewer still will really care... or will just look for a way to make a rebuttle. I hope a few will decide to support the shelter. Their website is www.stcroixawc.org. You can find out there how to volunteer to help, how to make a paypal donation, or what events are coming up. Be part of the solution.

- oh... and thats only domestic animals - canines and felines. All other animals are "protected" by our department of agriculture... who as far as I can tell does absolutely nothing when it comes to animal welfare issues. The shelter often attempts to get involved but has no authority and usually just helps through gentle persuasion.

Sorry for the long rant.... I am not a staff member or board member of the shelter. I am an occasional volunteer who believes in the importance of what they do and knows the difficulty and the necessity of all that they do. You caught me on a bad day. 😉

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Posted : August 22, 2009 8:41 pm
terry
(@terry)
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I will stop and make a donation!

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Posted : August 22, 2009 9:13 pm
Dan.Stutzman
(@Dan.Stutzman)
Advanced Member

No sir I am not!
I'm trying to illustrate people can forgive.
I simply wish for you not to paint an entire people with one brush. Just as your wife clearly has not.
I'm well aware Versaille was vengeance personified an crippled and lead to the next war.
And lessons were learned which is one reason for the Berlin airlift.
Believe it or not some of us can actually read.
(this is sarcasm used to illustrate absurdities - not a personal attack)

You have shown some contempt for those born in the USA. IMO it is unbecoming of an educated traveled person. I wish better of you.
My last name is Schaaf. From where do think my grand parents might have come?
Mien kinder deutsch comes back when I hear German tourists speaking for a couple of days.

I can see that people on this board don't understand the concept of a good debate. I do have some contempt for some very idiotic American ways but for the most I do enjoy living here. You notice I'm here and not in Germany.

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Posted : August 23, 2009 5:06 am
Dan.Stutzman
(@Dan.Stutzman)
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Dan,
If you think money has anything to do with my outrage towards"Vick" you're a fool. The Blood lust was "Vicks"! It's not in my power to pull a hangman's lever, or make him wear a scarlet letter on his team jersey. However I can get my hands dirty via protest of his actions, with the written word. The punishment or as you say the rehabilitation did not fit the severity of the crime. Our American Society are stewards for dogs/animals, my silence would be an acceptance of this atrocity.

I can respect that. I personally don't think he should have been re-instated in the NFL myself. But because his crimes has no relationship to his work, if Goodell wouldn't have re-instated him, Vick would have sued the NFL for discrimination and won.

Out of curiosity, what type of punishment would you have given Vick that at the end of it would have let you say, "I'm good now and you can go about your way in life."

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Posted : August 23, 2009 5:11 am
Uttica
(@Uttica)
Advanced Member

Normally I would love a good argument, but it's time to listen an follow someone who actually steps up for what's happening. I don't alway read long posts...boring...but limetime2 hit me at a couple of points in regards to the animal shelter....

...the staff and the board know that the job they do is so important in our community that they must continue doing it. They can not stop, not because they care so much about the community... but because they care so much about the animals that would suffer needlessly if the shelter did not exist...

In regards to those who work at the shelter... "Its a necessary job that most of us claim we "could never do". But thankfully... they find the strength to do it. Everyday the staff hugs, or gets free kisses, or laughs at the playful antics of a dog, cat, puppy or kitten... who is hoping for a second chance.... hoping."

The post goes onto say "I'm shedding sad tears right now because I know that probably fewer than 20 people will read this message... and fewer still will really care... or will just look for a way to make a rebuttle. I hope a few will decide to support the shelter. Their website is www.stcroixawc.org. You can find out there how to volunteer to help, how to make a paypal donation, or what events are coming up. Be part of the solution."

I have a "throw-a way" that I found on the highway. She is the best friend that one could have.

Not everyone can have the resources, passion, or time to care for animals in need. But I am with Terry "I will stop and make a donation".

I am not religious, but bless those who care for those who cannot care for themselves.

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Posted : August 23, 2009 6:45 am
Edward
(@Edward)
Trusted Member

Another thread addresses volunteerism generally. How about volunteering at the shelter?

As I said in starting this conversation, I'm a former Humane Society Executive Director. That experience brought home to me clearly the value of volunteers. One hour a week or one hour a month - every hour is valuable.

By the way, it's not only the animals who benefit. The volunteers do, too. 🙂

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Topic starter Posted : August 23, 2009 7:00 am
DixieChick
(@DixieChick)
Trusted Member

think of the example it sits down here for the animal abusers. they will think they can get off now since michael did.
i will not watch a phillys game. thank god he didnt go play for the patriots.

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Posted : August 23, 2009 12:17 pm
Linda J
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DIxie, if he had, would you have still supported the Pats?

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Posted : August 23, 2009 12:53 pm
Dan.Stutzman
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Another thread addresses volunteerism generally. How about volunteering at the shelter?

As I said in starting this conversation, I'm a former Humane Society Executive Director. That experience brought home to me clearly the value of volunteers. One hour a week or one hour a month - every hour is valuable.

By the way, it's not only the animals who benefit. The volunteers do, too. 🙂

I used to volunteer at our local HS but after losing our pitbull puppy to parvo in 2002, my wife and I had to stop. After losing "Fat Girl", we took off for about 6 months to collect our thoughts. When we thought we were good, we went back and just ended up being overwhelmed with grief knowing that save for a select few, that most of them were just waiting to die. That was we got involved with Helen Krause. We still donate around $5,000 a year to the HS, but we cannot give our time anymore.

I applaud those who can do it on regular basis because it is a type of hospice care unfortunately.

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Posted : August 23, 2009 3:16 pm
Dan.Stutzman
(@Dan.Stutzman)
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DIxie, if he had, would you have still supported the Pats?

Dixie, are you aware that New England offered a contract to Vick? Three teams offered contracts: Cincinnati, New England & Philadelphia. Vick chose Philly because of opportunity and playing time.

The commentators spoke heavily about this in Philly during the Philly/NE preseason game. Vick spent 3 days up in Foxboro speaking with Belicheck and Vick's agent afterward spoke about the contracts & teams interested after he had signed with Philly.

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Posted : August 23, 2009 3:20 pm
limetime2
(@limetime2)
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Dan... Helen Krause is a wonderful haven and I'm sure happy for your support. I checked out their website and adoption listings on PetFinder and they are predominantly a cat shelter, with only 15 dogs currently listed . None of them were small. They have a beautiful large facility and affluent clientele. Lucky them. If you live near them and you plan to visit us here on the island sometime... please consider saving the life of one of our animals by taking it to Helen Krause via our Pets from Paradise program. If you are there in Philly and can help connect the shelters...that would be great. Our AWC works with several no-kill shelters in the states that have a waiting list for people who want to adopt small homeless dogs but none are available. (Stateside shelters are often full of large breed dogs that "grew to big" and were disposed of. Our small breed dogs are perfect for big city life.

Our shelter does not have the luxury of being a no-kill shelter yet. They'd love to get there. Unlike stateside no-kill shelters that can pick and choose which pets they will accept - based on space availability, adoptability, and temperament. Our shelters have chosen to accept every unwanted pet regardless of its condition or the persons reason for getting rid of it. For every no-kill shelter anywhere in the US, there is a nearby government shelter that takes all the animals that the no-kill shelters can not accomodate. Instead of bad-mouthing each other and pointing fingers as to which approach is right... the two types of organizations have learned that its best to work together for the benefit of all animals and partner with each other to save as many as possible. We wear both hats here. We are open door and accept every animal.. (performing the county/government role).... and we also keep animals, sometimes for months and months if we know they are healthy, of sound temperament, and would be great pets.

For anyone visiting here... please, check with your local shelter and consider taking back one of our homeless critters to your local no-kill shelter. They are typically adopted within hours of their arrival. Get in contact with the shelter (ask for Pets from Paradise Coordinator).. Its very easy and very little inconvenience on your travel plans. The two shelters do all the work. And... Don't worry... there are plenty of pups left here on the island to satisy our adoption needs.

And now... a note on VICK. Vick and HSUS (Humane Society of the US) are talking about partnering up in an anti-dogfighting campaign.
http://www.dancingdogblog.com/2009/08/cnn-on-vick-hsus-and-why/ .... VICK would act as spokesperson for a campaign targeting teen dog fighting in US... turning these young men toward dog training and dog sport activities like agility, etc. The article admits that only time will really determine whether VICK is sincere or not, and truly remorseful...or... would even do it. He apparently approached the HSUS.! If he can become an anti-animal cruelty spokesperson and help win the fight against dog-fighting and animal abuse...and redeem his image some... .... I'm all for letting him try to do it. I despise what he did... but maybe, just maybe... he could do some good. I hope it happens.

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Posted : August 23, 2009 4:47 pm
Lizard
(@Lizard)
Trusted Member

Herr Stutzam,
Sie wurden als ein troll identifiziert. Geben sie ihem rest fur eineweile.

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Posted : August 23, 2009 5:02 pm
limetime2
(@limetime2)
Advanced Member

Here are two more interesting articles regarding Michael Vick as a spokesperson for anti animal cruelty efforts.

http://news.prnewswire.com/DisplayReleaseContent.aspx?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/08-21-2009/0005081364&EDATE= (An ASPCA rejection of him as a spokesperson because they felt he was not sincere enough and they knew too well how horrible his crimes were)

http://www.dancingdogblog.com/2009/08/vicks-first-anti-dogfighting-appearance/#more-1835 - a news review of his first appearance speaking on HSUS program.

My favorite point from second article:

...there should be a long-term investment in several different programs that work together to make an impact on root causes of dogfighting. While there are the irredeemable who like torturing animals, there are other circumstances that lead down this path. Lack of education, opportunity . . .

also

Compassion and empathy can be experienced, understood, and learned by many who were never taught these traits. What is heard by youth in the audience, those without the talent to have dreams of fame and fortune, is at issue: it can’t just be about Vick losing his dream. It should be about never using the trust and love of an animal to inflict cruelty and pain, not even if desperate for money.

Makes you think about What could we do here on island to re-direct misguided dog fighting prone kids away from dogfighting?

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Posted : August 23, 2009 5:55 pm
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